From: Internet Megantic <support@megantic.net>
Subject: (urth) unsuscribe: Digest urth.v017.n007
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:28:03 





unsuscribe


At 19:19 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n007 --------------
>
>    001 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Jeannine as abo
>    002 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Lexicon Urthus
>    003 - Internet Megantic <suppor - unsuscribe
>    004 - Dan Parmenter <dan@lec.co - The Phantom Rickshaw
>    005 - adam louis stephanides <a - A few minor cavils
>    006 - m.driussi@genie.com       - (urth) Autarchs are commoners
>    007 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Autarchial dynasties
>
>URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.1 ---------------
>
>From: mary whalen <marewhalen@yahoo.com>
>Subject: (urth) Jeannine as abo
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>
>Yet another piece of evidence that Aunt Jeannine in _The Fith Head of
>Cerberus_ is really an abo impostor.
>
>On page 52 of the Orb edition, No. 5 describes her withered legs as
>"like the sticks David and I used as little boys, when doing parlor
>magic, we wished Mr. Million to believe us lying prone when we were in
>fact crouched beneath our own supposed figures."
>
>He's comparing her legs to devices used to deceive and make one thing
>seem to be another, to conceal.
>
>prion
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.2 ---------------
>
>From: mary whalen <marewhalen@yahoo.com>
>Subject: (urth) Lexicon Urthus
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>
>Concerning the geography discussion, Michael Andre-Driussi's (mantis')
>_Lexicon Urthus_ has an excellent map illustrating my points in the
>previous post.
>
>Seeing those carved mountains has reminded me of the question of how
>all of them could have been carved in the one to two thousand years
>Wolfe said had passed between Typhon and Severian's time.  Well, since
>the time of the Conciliator to the narration of the books is like the
>time of Jesus to the present (between 1000 and 2000 describes the
>present) maybe he was being metaphoric when he said that he had always
>thought of it as being like between those times, comparing it to what
>we have experienced.  Or he may have been confused at the time when
>thinking about how he intended the metaphorical correlation.
>
>In the books, the time period is given as "thirty thousand years" by
>Agia, and "many chiliads" by Severian.  They could be wrong, but this
>would be plenty of time for the mountains to be carved, and be in tune
>with the action in the book and mantis' timeline.
>
>prion
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.3 ---------------
>
>From: Internet Megantic <support@megantic.net>
>Subject: unsuscribe
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:53:47 -0400
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>unsuscribe
>
>
>
>
>
>At 03:43 20-07-98 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n006 --------------
>>
>>    001 - adam louis stephanides <a - Severian and the White Fountain
>>    002 - adam louis stephanides <a - Il (Peter) Principe
>>    003 - Internet Megantic <suppor - unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005
>>    004 - "Alex David Groce" <adgro - Eleanor Bold
>>    005 - "J. Schultz" <jschultz@wc - Autarch
>>    006 - m.driussi@genie.com       - (urth) Questions Keep Questing
>>    007 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) David as Maitre 2
>>    008 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney
>>    009 - Peter Westlake <peter@har - Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth
>>    010 - mary whalen <marewhalen@y - Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth
>>
>>URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.1 ---------------
>>
>>From: adam louis stephanides <astephan@students.uiuc.edu>
>>Subject: Severian and the White Fountain
>>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT)
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>>In-Reply-To: <199807142021.NAA29492@lists1.best.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 Christopher R. Culver wrote:
>>
>>> Adam asked:
>>> >Why is it necessary for anybody to "bring the White Fountain" to Urth?  Why
>>> can't the Hierogrammates just send it?<
>>> 
>>> This is, IMHO, rather simple. The Hierogrammates are theological beings who
>>> serve the Pancreator. As such, they judge the sentient beings of their area
>>> and decide whether those people are deserving of a miracle.
>>
>>What I meant to ask was not "Why don't the Hierogrammates distributes
>>White Fountains to everybody who need one?" but "Having decided to give
>>Urth a White Fountain, why don't they simply send Severian back to Urth,
>>assuring him the White Fountain will be along shortly?  Why go through
>>this routine of having Severian "become" the White Fountain as well, which
>>he then "guides" to Urth, or at least believes he does.
>> 
>>> Also: > <And if someone has to bring it, why must it be an Autarch?>
>>> 
>>> Severian mentions on the Ship of Tzadkiel that the Autarch is by right the
>>> representative of Urth to the Hierodules, even though he rules a small
>portion
>>> of it. 
>>
>>True, but Severian's "trial" is not, as he origingally believes, to
>>determine his or Urth's moral fitness to receive the New Sun, but to
>>determine the likelihood of his successfully bringing the New Sun.  So
>>it's not obvious why the New Sun needs to be brought by an ex officio
>>"representative of Urth."
>>
>>--Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.2 ---------------
>>
>>From: adam louis stephanides <astephan@students.uiuc.edu>
>>Subject: Il (Peter) Principe
>>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:35:59 -0500 (CDT)
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>>In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362@lists1.best.com>
>>
>>
>>mantis,
>>
>>I was away for a few days, or I would have responded to your post earlier.
>>I have a few minor cavils, which I'll discuss elsewhere, but I found it
>>admirably clear and enlightening.
>>
>>Unfortunately, it only leaves me more baffled regarding _Urth_ as a whole.
>>In fact, it now seems to me that _Urth_ is at least as obscure as
>>_Castleview_.  To start with, the Hierodules have been supporting the
>>"rickety" political structure of the Commonwealth for a thousand years or
>>more, apparently solely so that at the end of this time Severian, the
>>man destined to bring the New Sun, will be Autarch.  This is too
>>reminiscent of _The Sirens of Titan_ for my taste.  More to the point, it
>>makes even more urgent the questions I asked in an earlier post: why must
>>an Urthman bring the New Sun, why an Autarch, and why Severian?  I'm not
>>as confident that the answers I gave are correct as I was then, but I
>>haven't seen any better answers.  For that matter, I'm doubtful about the
>>whole punishment-and-redemption-of-Urth schema: if the "redemption"
>>involves wiping out 99.9% of Urth's population, one would think the
>>"punishment" could be dispensed with as superfluous.
>>
>>I'm also baffled by the course of events surrounding Severian's "trial."
>>Why is he led to think that his trial will be like his predecessor's?  Is
>>it just so he will be a more humane ruler as Autarch?  But then why isn't
>>he told the truth as soon as he leaves Urth?
>>
>>And what is the function of the battle royal between the sailors and the
>>aquastors?  Were the Hierogrammates really willing, after all those years
>>of preparation, to risk the survival of their race on the outcome of that
>>battle?  
>>
>>In short, your post made me realize that so far, the first half of _Urth_
>>doesn't make sense for me.  Any help you, or anyone else of course, can
>>give me would be most appreciated.  (If this post seems querulous, it's a
>>reflection of my desperation.)
>>
>>--Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.3 ---------------
>>
>>From: Internet Megantic <support@megantic.net>
>>Subject: unsuscribe- Digest urth.v017.n005
>>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:32:19 -0400
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>At 21:10 18-07-98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>-------------- BEGIN urth.v017.n005 --------------
>>>
>>>    001 - "William H. Ansley" <wans - Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space
>>>    002 - "Robert Borski" <rborski@ - Sanderson's Abandonment
>>>    003 - "Alice Turner" <al@interp - Re: Digest urth.v017.n004
>>>    004 - Derek Bell <dbell@maths.t - Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space
>>>    005 - raster@highfiber.com (Cha - Re: Claudius
>>>
>>>URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.1 ---------------
>>>
>>>From: "William H. Ansley" <wansley@warwick.net>
>>>Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 -0400
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>In-Reply-To: <199807180216.TAA14355@lists1.best.com>
>>>
>>>>One of the more puzzling names in THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS to be sourced
>>>>is the Country of Friends. It's cited by the abos as the possible homeport
>>>>of the star-faring Homo sapiens pangalacticus, who've traveled to Saint
>>>>Anne in the distant past, and mentioned in the same breath as Atlantis and
>>>>Gondwanaland.
>>>>
>>>>I'm now speculating it relates to the Aztecs.
>>>>
>>>>This is because Texas--where Gene Wolfe grew up--is derived from the Indian
>>>>word "texia," meaning "friends." And since Texas was once part of Mexico,
>>>>it's possible the Country of Friends generally refers to Aztecan
>>>>civilization.
>>>
>>>I like this too.
>>>
>>>I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs
>>>elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find
>>>the reference, I will certainly post.
>>>
>>>William Ansley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.2 ---------------
>>>
>>>From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@coredcs.com>
>>>Subject: Sanderson's Abandonment
>>>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:26:00 -0500
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>
>>>Earlier, in regards to my Continuing Westward post, Sean Whalen (aka prion)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>"This seems to fit, but how does it fit in that he originally thought
>>>that she stabbed Sanderson?  He didn't just decide to leave him, he
>>>thought that he was dead."
>>>
>>>This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom
>>>Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS
>>>THREE and the other collections. Or it may be simple irony. Paris, the
>>>Great Seducer, undone by his own lust (whereas the Paris of legend stakes a
>>>claim to the most beautiful woman in the world and precipitates a war).
>>>
>>>Of course, all of the Homeric correspondences are rather loosely clumped
>>>together--hence the notion of Greek Odysseus and Trojan Paris as
>>>shipmates--so the search for parallels my be intriniscally flawed to begin
>>>with, at least if we expect 100% fidelity with the Illiad/Odyssey.
>>>
>>>Also, what I forgot to mention in my Cherry Jubilee piece is that KGB agent
>>>Vera Oussenko, who, as you mention, is arrested, represents truth, which
>>>she is seeking, even though she gets it wrong (Vera = veritas), only in the


>>>inverted value system of CJ she's "punished"--not being allowed to
>>>disembark, she's spared the hell of Mars.
>>>
>>>Robert Borski
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.3 ---------------
>>>
>>>From: "Alice Turner" <al@interport.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Digest urth.v017.n004
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:16:27 -0400
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>>>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>>
>>>
>>>>Don't know if this has been brought up before, but if Owen/Ouen is
>>>>considered to be the Welsh/Celtic equivalent of Eugene, doesn't that mean
>>>>Sev's father might also be called Gene?
>>>
>>>
>>>From the Oxford book of English Christian names:
>>>
>>>OWEN: a common Welsh name; in Middle English romances often spelled Owain,
>>>Owayne, Ywain. It has been supposed to be derived from Latin Eugenius...see
>>>Ewan. (Ouen)
>>>
>>>EWEN: this name, now confined to Scotland, was once common in England...It
>>>is probably the same as Irish and Gaelic Eoghan 'a youth,' which is frequent
>>>in Celtic legend and history. Eoghan is usually derived from Primitive
>>>Celtic Eugenius  'well-born,' from which is derived Old Welsh Euguein which
>>>later became Middle Welsh Ewein, Ywein, whence modern Welsh Owain, Owen.
>>>
>>>Bravo, scolex. Thank you.
>>>
>>>-alga-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.4 ---------------
>>>
>>>From: Derek Bell <dbell@maths.tcd.ie>
>>>Subject: Re: (urth) Sev's Dad; Aztecs in Space
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:22:08 +0100
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:50:38 EDT."
>>>             <199807180352.UAA19972@lists1.best.com>
>>>
>>>In message <199807180352.UAA19972@lists1.best.com>, "William H. Ansley"
>writes:
>>>>I have a nagging idea that the phrase "the Country of Friends" occurs
>>>>elsewhere in Wolfe and I have seen it recently in my rereading. If I find
>>>>the reference, I will certainly post.
>>>
>>>	I think it's in the short story _Feather Tigers_, IIRC. It
>>>occurs in the dialog between the main protagonist and the sky(space?)
>>>yacht.
>>>
>>>	Derek
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n005.5 ---------------
>>>
>>>From: raster@highfiber.com (Charles Dye)
>>>Subject: Re: Claudius
>>>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:57 -0600 (MDT)
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>>CRCulver@aol.com writes:
>>>
>>>>Alex:
>>>>< Has there been any discussion on the list (sorry, I'm new and haven't had
>>>>time to exhaustively browse the archives) of similarities between
>Severian and
>>>>Claudius, both the historical emperor and the charming narrator of the two
>>>>Robert Graves novels?>
>>>
>>>>The point that comes to mind first is that both Claudius and Severian
plan to
>>>>write a manuscript they believe no one will read and get rid of it in a lead
>>>>coffer.
>>>
>>>The dead giveaway, for me anyhow, was the scene where Severian produces one
>>>of 'his' aes in the era of Typhon:
>>>
>>>    He examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me.  "Gold all right.
>>>    Looks a trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up.
>>>    Don't suppose you noticed."
>>>
>>>    "No," I said.  "I never thought of it."
>>>
>>>    Hadelin nodded and pushed back his chair.  "A man doesn't shave himself
>>>    sidewise.  See you in the morning, sieur, madame."
>>>
>>>Compare with a scene from "Claudius the God" chapter 6 :
>>>
>>>    It pleased my vanity to have my head on the coins....  Portraits on
>>>    coins, however, are always disappointing because they are executed in
>>>    profile, and it comes as a shock, when one sees it in a portrait, that
>>>    one really looks like that to people standing beside one.  For one's
>>>    full face, because of the familiarity that mirrors give it, a certain
>>>    toleration and even affection is felt; but I must say that when I first
>>>    saw the model that the mint-masters were striking for me I grew angry
>>>    and asked whether it was intended to be a caricature.
>>>
>>>Robert Graves once did a translation of "The Lives of the Twelve Caesars"
>>>in which each Emperor's chapter was illustrated with the appropriate aureus.
>>>
>>>raster@highfiber.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------- END urth.v017.n005 ---------------
>>>
>>>
>>>*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
>>>
>>>
>>/Serges
>>Internet Megantic
>>http://www.megantic.net/
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.4 ---------------
>>
>>From: "Alex David Groce" <adgroce@eos.ncsu.edu>
>>Subject: Eleanor Bold
>>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:57:36 -0400
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>	I've often wondered if the name "Eleanor Bold" in PEACE is simply a
>>coincidence, or is intended to mean something.  I've seen Wolfe refer to
>>Trollope before, particularly in an essay or interview when he was discussing
>>the value to a writer of having a job other than writing (I think this is in
>>CASTLE OF DAYS).  So, it seems reasonable to assume Wolfe's read BARCHESTER
>>TOWERS, and possibly all of the Barchester books, and it is an intentional
>>effect.  But what exactly is it supposed to suggest?  Any ideas?
>>
>>-- 
>>"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32
>>--
>>Alex David Groce (adgroce@eos.ncsu.edu)
>>Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction)
>>'98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President
>>608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366
>>http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.5 ---------------
>>
>>From: "J. Schultz" <jschultz@wcnet.org>
>>Subject: Autarch
>>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:42:38 -0400
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>It takes me a while to get around to reading all my mail.  This is in
>>response to the difference between Autarch and Monarch.  As we have all
>>figured by now Autarch means one who rules themselves.  This idea works into
>>one of the themes I see present in the first set of books (tBotNS).  At each
>>step in Severian's development we see him cast off the power of one
>>authority after another.  He breaks his ties from the authority of the
>>guild, the Archon and his post as Lictor, Typhon, etc.  It all leads up to
>>the point where just before the Lake people attack the castle of Baldanders,
>>when Severian says (to paraphrase) I began to follow the Increate's
>>authority above all others.  Severian has become his own man, as it were.
>>He decides for himself what is right and wrong, moral and evil, with a
>>personal relationship with God.  Thus I feel that the title "Autarch" is
>>symbolic of this change and that the title has more thematic meaning, rather
>>than any real practical meaning in the way of legal proceedure.  A rose is a
>>rose is a rose.  Or, it doesn't really matter what you call him, the idea is
>>that he is the top dog and no one is higher, the one man who rules himself.
>>As we find out, however, the Autarch is the subject of the Hierodules and
>>other higher powers (at least in some sense of the word).  We can't forget
>>that the message of tBotNS is basically spiritual and religious, whether we
>>like it or not.  In my mind it is the redemption of a torturer who is lost
>>in an immoral and decaying world.
>>
>>As far as what would have happened had Appian let Severian enter Yesod, he
>>most likely would have failed having not learned the important lessons that
>>were to come.  However, He would have EATEN Appian's brains AT THAT TIME.
>>Appian even says, "Gee, sorry I'm so shocked but I thought I had more time."
>>Which leads me to believe that Appian knows that Sev will take the throne
>>and he knows that to take the throne he (Appian) has to be dead.  I would
>>balk too if my replacement walked in the door and said, "Well, I'm ready,
>>take me to the garden and get your brains ready."  While Sev doesn't say
>>this it is percieved this way by Appian.
>>
>>Let me say that the story has already faded in my mind and mingled with half
>>ideas, my own experiences, and the way I would like it to be.  (as I'm sure
>>happens to us all)
>>
>>One timeless question  (FunkMonkey steps in line behind hundreds of
>>philosophers, ancient to modern)   How much free will does Severian have?
>>When does Tra. KNOW Severain has passed.  Have they engineered him from the
>>begining and so no test is needed?  He has some power from the White
>>Fountain long before heading into space, as Sev himself says, 'as if the
>>presentment of his future came back through time to him.'  Assuming he
>>raised Triskle from the dead he has had his 'powers' from the begining.
>>Everyone on Urth in Sev's time knows of the Concilliator.  The Concilliator
>>is Sev returning triumphant.  Thus Severian has already suceeded before he
>>begun!  Or has he?  Time travel always throws me through a logic loop.  Like
>>asking the question "If I went back in time and killed my past self, who
>>would grow up to kill me?"  Any thoughts?  This could be and endless
>>discussion.
>>
>>FunkMonkey
>>     with the logical MonkeyWrench
>>
>>J. Schutlz
>>jschultz@wcnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.6 ---------------
>>
>>From: m.driussi@genie.com
>>Subject: (urth) Questions Keep Questing
>>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 04:11:00 GMT
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Adam,
>>
>>FWIW I didn't take your post in a querulous mode.  And I'm glad that
>>something I wrote seemed clear and enlightening, but of course I was
>>only shooting in the dark and I can't hope to hit a homer every time,
>>even if it is a room full of ancient Greek poets who are blind, just
>>to mix metaphors (and this one is for raster--don't think I didn't
>>laugh on that homer quip).
>>
>>I'm comfortable with the paradoxes I hold in suspension on this one.
>>If I can continue to explain what I see, maybe you can see it even if
>>you don't particularly believe it.
>>
>>The Peter Principle is about the triumph of mediocrity, I think.
>>
>>Il Principe is Machiavelli's work about amoral statecraft.
>>
>>Peter Wright's papers on the "Fictions of the New Sun" provide a
>>Machiavellian reading (which, in turn, makes Severian's narrative
>>much closer to Herbert's DUNE series than Tolkien's LOTR).
>>
>>"Sirens of Titan" is another good touchstone and I'm glad you brought
>>it up.  This is the "sarcastic" or "cosmic joke" answer to the Big
>>Question, and I think we can all agree that it isn't an
>>overwhelmingly fitting solution to the Briah/Yesod situation.
>>
>>Some of your questions can be answered: The situation facing Severian
>>rides a tightrope between free-will and pre-destination.
>>
>>This by itself is a huge topic.  Philosophy, physics, metaphysics,
>>etc.
>>
>>In practical terms, we rejoice that Severian took the brown book,
>>rather than Canog's Book of the New Sun, because this "opens the
>>loop" and makes the oracular power of the tales work their magic on
>>Severian, which then helps him behave in a certain way, which is then
>>faithfully recorded as Canog's Book of the New Sun.  If Severian had
>>taken Canog's, it would have been a closed loop "blueprint"; Severian
>>would have been reduced to being a robot--and maybe would have
>>resisted doing it, and the whole thing would collapse.
>>
>>Likewise, nobody with any authority and/or knowledge could ever "tell
>>Severian the truth" or "what to do" or anything like that.  For the
>>same reason.  They tell him just enough and just in time.  He has to
>>be guided to the right decision, but he cannot be simply told, nor
>>forced to do something.
>>
>>Maybe we could liken it to developing a photograph: it is done in the
>>dark, by mysterious rituals and formula, but there is a goal in mind
>>and it begins to materialize until finally it is done and we can turn
>>on the light and see it clearly.
>>
>>As for why does Yesod care.  Well, one model is that Briah and Yesod
>>are two halves of the same creature--one is male and one is female,
>>to use the crudest analogy.  They must have an exchange of
>>information to ensure their own future survival: Urth gets a New Sun,
>>and Yesod gets the next stage closer to Hieros . . . who will then
>>make hierogrammates.  It all is a reproductive rite; as if homo
>>sapiens were to guide australopithecus toward becoming homo erectus,
>>so that homo erectus would give way to homo sapiens.
>>
>>Which brings us to another dicotomy: the breaking of the human
>>experience into Pure Order and the wild things.  Cyriaca's tale of
>>posthistory tells us that the First Empire was founded upon the one
>>(Order) and brought down by the rejected other (non-order).  The
>>implication being (I think) that there should be a balance, within
>>the individual and within the culture.
>>
>>Not to be "zen" about it, nor too smug, but questions about the very
>>mysterious first half of URTH should not be focused entirely in the
>>"logical" or "rational" mode.  If Order leads to brick walls of
>>confusion, see if Non-order can lead to a doorway.  If "modern
>>science" can't answer, try "cave painting poetry" instead.
>>
>>If you haven't already, you really should read Wright's essays.  You
>>might find that they fit you like a tee.
>>
>>=mantis=
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.7 ---------------
>>
>>From: mary whalen <marewhalen@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: (urth) David as Maitre 2
>>Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 23:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>>
>>I think that in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ the junior officer who
>>reviews VRT's case is actually David.  First, David is known to have
>>gone to the capital after his father's death, presumably to follow his
>>love of political power.  Plenty of time has passed since the murder
>>and VRT's arrest for him to have attained such a position and to have
>>held it for a fairly significant amount of time.  Also, he is called a
>>junior officer and the other officer he meets is called a brother
>>officer.  This is an allusion to the fact that David is younger than
>>his "brother" No. 5.  The other person the j.o. is mentioned in this
>>story to be younger than is his slave, who is probably one of the
>>clones or altered clones of Maitre.  This seems to be plenty, in a
>>Wolfe book, to link him to David.  More, he is only addressed as
>>Maitre, just like his father was, continuing the chain of linkage. 
>>The other officer also says that he always was a night owl, which is
>>similar to the way that David and No. 5 stayed up when they were young
>>in FHC.  Also, when he hits the slave, it is like a reversal of when
>>No. 5 accidently stabbed him when he was fighting the other clone of
>>Maitre with four arms.
>>
>>prion
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.8 ---------------
>>
>>From: mary whalen <marewhalen@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: (urth) Fifth Head miscellaney
>>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:05:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>>
>>I just wanted to put down a few minor miscellaneous points I have in
>>my mind about _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_.
>>
>>Today I saw a show about Neanderthals.  It seems that their
>>flintworkers could make a blade that is the sharpest known to man, as
>>could the later humans.  The discusser said that it is even sharper
>>than a modern surgeon's scalpel.  Marsch talks about how flint can be
>>chipped with little dexterity when he talks to RT speculating about
>>how he could make the implements he sells as Annese with his arthritic
>>hands.  VRT probably used flint to cut out the first pages of Marsch's
>>diary, which are said in the story to have been cut out with an
>>instrument sharper than a scalpel.
>>
>>VRT may have bought the brass circumciser to use on himself, so that
>>he would not be discovered to be impersonating Marsch if his books
>>were found.  Did he ever get to use it?  I don't know if anyone in
>>authority ever saw him naked, and he asked not to be strip-searched by
>>the men who arrest him.
>>
>>Isn't it possible that VRT didn't kill Marsch, but that he was killed
>>by the tire-tiger?  In the journal, written by VRT, it says that
>>Marsch was attacked by the waiting tiger when he came down from the
>>tree, and that he should have been mauled but was absurdly lucky, and
>>was only knocked back into a thorn bush.  It seems to me that the
>>tiger actually killed Marsch, and that VRT wrote that Marsch survived
>>so that he could take his place.  Otherwise, there's no reason to
>>include this passage at all, as it seems ridiculous that Marsch could
>>actually save himself if the tiger attacked as he came down the tree.
>>
>>Again, I wonder if VRT actually killed the cat-girl or just wrote that
>>so that he wouldn't have to write about her interactions with Marsch,
>>which would have been very different from the interactions he had with
>>her, and too difficult for him to make up.  When he begins to write in
>>the journal, he also talks about "we" a lot, apparently about him and
>>the mules, but perhaps not.
>>
>>I don't think that I believe Robert Borski's idea that RT is actually
>>an abo himself.  It seems odd that his wife and son have green eyes
>>when he doesn't.  VRT thinks he's a human, he says that what happens
>>to his hands will keep him from his profession, implying that he had
>>tool-using hands before.  He can operate the buttons that his wife
>>can't.
>>
>>Also, I believe that there was some discussion about what VRT and
>>Maitre believe about Jeannine's genetic relations when VRT says that
>>she is the daughter of "shall we say an earlier 'version'" of No. 5. 
>>It seems possible that he meant a version as the parent of the Gene
>>Wolfe genome, rather than an earlier person in the line of clones. 
>>However, in jail VRT says that Jeannine is genetically Gene's
>>daughter.  At that time, remember, VRT didn't know that No. 5 knew he
>>was a clone, and was thus just being subtle.
>>
>>prion
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.9 ---------------
>>
>>From: Peter Westlake <peter@harlequin.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth
>>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:23:52 +0100
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>References: <199807022151.OAA05425@lists1.best.com>
>>In-Reply-To: <199807051857.LAA20487@lists1.best.com>
>>
>>At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:
>>>
>>>prion wrote:
>>>
>>>> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)
>>>> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America geographically
>>>> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is described as
>>>> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south.  The answer is
>>>> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it
>>>> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't
>>>> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the
>>>> first place.
>>>
>>>I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the
>>>south of SA.  My question was based on my belief that Severian was
>>>asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands.  But
>>>reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant
>>>phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern-
>>>most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a
>>>whole, as I had originally thought.  So there's no problem there.
>>
>>Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find
>>the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and
>>was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the
>>South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West Indies.
>>Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:
>>
>>>And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her axis, would
>>>that matter?  To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear to be the
>>>same?  He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the tropical
>>>regions.  After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are somewhat
>>>arbitrary constructs, aren't they?  Why couldn't we depict the world with
>>>the South Pole on "top"?  Maybe we've got the whole universe upside-down.
>>
>>(I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)
>>
>>It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,
>>while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be
>>under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.
>>I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we
>>would expect them to flow East.
>>
>>In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and
>>the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think
>>(doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this
>>really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.
>>Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left
>>or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the
>>Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,
>>given his total inability to follow directions.
>>
>>SBear.
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n006.10 ---------------
>>
>>From: mary whalen <marewhalen@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: (urth) Islands in Commonwealth
>>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>>
>>---Peter Westlake wrote:
>>>
>>> At 13:57 1998-07-05 -0500, Adam wrote:
>>> >
>>> >prion wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> A previous letter to the list (I'm sorry but I don't remember when)
>>> >> asked how the Commonwealth could be in a South America
>>geographically
>>> >> similar to the current continent when the Commonwealth is
>>described as
>>> >> consisting of an archipelago of islands to the south.  The answer
>>is
>>> >> that SA does have a long chain of many islands in the south, but it
>>> >> closely follows the close, so the questioner probably wouldn't
>>> >> remember them or have noticed them just by casually looking in the
>>> >> first place.
>>> >
>>> >I was the original questioner, and I was aware of the islands in the
>>> >south of SA.  My question was based on my belief that Severian was
>>> >asserting that the Commonwealth consisted entirely of islands.  But
>>> >reexamining the quote, it now seems clear to me that the relevant
>>> >phrase--"a chain of islands like our south"--refers to the southern-
>>> >most portion of the Commonwealth, and not to the Commonwealth as a
>>> >whole, as I had originally thought.  So there's no problem there.
>>> 
>>> Hasn't Wolfe said that Gyoll is the Orinoco? As usual, I can't find
>>> the place where I read this. But I looked at an atlas yesterday and
>>> was quite surprised. Because if it's true, then the islands in the
>>> South - the direction away from the Equator - would be the West
>>Indies.
>>
>>Wheww.  How's that for a bundle of citations?
>>
>>I don't remember Wolfe ever saying this, and it doesn't appear
>>possible (see below).
>>
>>> Last year Scott Dalrymple wrote:
>>> 
>>> >And, regarding Vodalus's assertion that Urth has flipped on her
>>axis, would
>>> >that matter?  To someone like Severian, wouldn't the world appear
>>to be the
>>> >same?  He'd still be traveling toward Urth's belly to reach the
>>tropical
>>> >regions.  After all, North and South, while tied to poles, are
>>somewhat
>>> >arbitrary constructs, aren't they?  Why couldn't we depict the
>>world with
>>> >the South Pole on "top"?  Maybe we've got the whole universe
>>upside-down.
>>
>>Vodalus was talking about the magnetic axis flipping, which has
>>happened often before on Earth.
>>
>>North and south may seem arbitrary, but east and west definitely
>>aren't.  The sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  Assuming a
>>human has a head in one direction and feet in the other, it is
>>possible to determine which side is left and which right, and they are
>>different.  But anyway, with a person's left to the west and right to
>>the east, he would be facing north, as happens to Severian (see below).
>>
>>> (I quote Scott because I can't find the original quote ;-)
>>> 
>>> It makes sense for the West Indies to be rather colder than nowadays,
>>> while the islands along the coast of South America would surely be
>>> under the ice. The West Indies are more of an archipelago, too.
>>> I think this also explains why the rivers all flow West, when we
>>> would expect them to flow East.
>>> 
>>> In _Citadel_ Severian is walking North with the sea to the West and
>>> the Sun rising on his right. The Sun still rises in the East, I think
>>> (doesn't Typhon's statue face West, away from the sunrise?) so this
>>> really would be the world having turned over, not a magnetic reversal.
>>> Mind you, this is about the one place in the whole book where left
>>> or right are mentioned explicitly. I would almost rather believe the
>>> Sun rose in the West than trust Severian to know which way was right,
>>> given his total inability to follow directions.
>>> 
>>> SBear.
>>
>>As I understand it, the entire geography is like this: the sea level
>>is lower because the colder temperature has frozen more water into the
>>ice caps.  There is thus more land.  South America is in the general
>>area it is now, with a similar distribution of continents.  Nessus is
>>on the west coast, west of the "Andes" and perhaps on land that is
>>currently underwater.  The Gyoll flows from it's source in the Andes
>>west to it's mouth on the west coast.  East of the Andes is the Amazon
>>jungle.  North in North America is the country of the Ascians.  West
>>are the Xanthic lands (Asia).
>>
>>To explain:  in the book it says that to the south are the narrow
>>lands and the southern archipelago.  This could refer to either what
>>is currently north or south, however, it also says that to the north
>>is the waist of the world and north of that the Ascians.  There is no
>>isthmus to what we call the south.  Therefore, the directions are the
>>same as we use today.  The Ascians live in North America, the waist is
>>the Isthmus of Panama and environs.  The narrow lands are the narrow
>>southern part of South America.  Also, the islands may not be the ones
>>there today, but lower ones revealed by the receded ocean.  Severian
>>also says that the north is hotter, in some sections of the books.
>>
>>The rivers flow west because he's west of the Andes.  There's also
>>more land in that area because of the sea level.
>>
>>I've already discussed how Severian's northward journey helps confirm
>>this.
>>
>>prion
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>--------------- END urth.v017.n006 ---------------
>>
>>
>>*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
>>
>>
>/Serges
>Internet Megantic
>http://www.megantic.net/
>
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.4 ---------------
>
>From: Dan Parmenter <dan@lec.com>
>Subject: The Phantom Rickshaw
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
>In-Reply-To: <199807201043.DAA21472@lists1.best.com>
>	(urth-errors@lists.best.com)
>
>From: "Robert Borski" <rborski@coredcs.com>
>
>re: CONTINUING WESTWARD
>
>>This may relate to some aspect of a Kipling short story (The Phantom
>>Rickshaw?), but I'm not sure--it's been 30+ years since I read SOLDIERS
>>THREE and the other collections.
>
>Oddly enough I read both stories within a few weeks of one another,
>but I think that it's probably some other story besides TPR that
>you think might be resonating in your memory.
>
>D
>
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.5 ---------------
>
>From: adam louis stephanides <astephan@students.uiuc.edu>
>Subject: A few minor cavils
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:26:07 -0500 (CDT)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>In-Reply-To: <199807140634.XAA22362@lists1.best.com>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 mantis wrote:
>
>> Actually I believe raster's primary concern re: authentic autarchs is
>> the same as my own--the brain eating bit.
>
>[snip]
> 
>> And thus, it doesn't matter what Valeria calls herself, she isn't a
>> real autarch.  The higher ups of Yesod would know it if they cared to
>> look, and issues of sovereignity aside (though I agree with you on
>> all or nearly all the points you've made--my intended point was that
>> "Conan the Nomarch of Urth" and other pseudo-autarchs aren't going to
>> be allowed to take the Test: the only recognized representative of
>> Urth is the real autarch), that the common people know Valeria isn't
>> a real autarch is extremely damaging to the domestic situation.
>
>I didn't see anything either in the scene in Valeria's throne room, or in
>Severian's later talks with Odilo and Eata, to indicate that there is
>any domestic instability over Valeria's inability to take the test.  All
>Eata says is that there is "talk," and this talk stems from her being a
>woman and not knowing the words of power, not over her inability to take
>the test (let alone her not having eaten her predecessor's brain, which
>I doubt the populace knows anything about; at any rate, Severian didn't).
>
>In any case, if nobody took the test between Ymar and Appian, then the
>role of the test in legitimating the Autarchy can't have been that
>important.
> 
>> I'll also agree that the autarchs inbetween were told that they
>> would fail if they tried--this may be straight from the text (in any
>> event, I know I've talked with people about it).
>
>That's actually not what I had in mind, and the one passage I recall which
>bears on this question seems to tell against this: Severian tells
>Palaemon that his predecessors had often refused to take the test because
>they thought the enemy would gain an advantage from the New Sun
>(IV, ch. 34).  My idea had been that the other Autarchs' Hierodule
>advisers had given the Autarchs ostensibly neutral advice which
>nevertheless highlighted this, and perhaps other, alleged disadvantages of
>taking the test.
>
>> The Byzantine model fails at this level, since Byzantine emperors had
>> to be cunning, ruthless, etc., clawing their way to the top.  Whereas
>> we know that the autarchs often enough just stumbled into it--the
>> Peter Principle crafts a "Claudiarchy" of common men and women,
>> including second-rate scholars, farmwives, wantons, sailors, and
>> artisans (V, ch. 34).
>
>I'm sure you're right about the general mediocrity of the "found" Autarchs
>(though they need not be any more mediocre than those who succeeded
>through primogeniture, or than hereditary monarchs anywhere else, for that
>matter).  But my impression is that this quote (which is in IV, not V)
>refers not just to the earlier Autarchs, but to all the personalities
>Severian now contains, only some of which are Autarchs.  If they are all
>Autarchs, then since Severian says "'Most are only common men and women,
>sailors and artisans, farmwives and wantons,'" that would seem to imply
>that the Autarchs who succeed via heredity are in the minority.
>
>--Adam
>
>
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.6 ---------------
>
>From: m.driussi@genie.com
>Subject: (urth) Autarchs are commoners
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 23:11:00 GMT
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Adam,
>
>Perhaps you want to argue that hereditary autarchy imparts "nobility"
>in the first generation.  But the aristocracy of Urth is the exultant
>class, and exultants are forbidden to be autarchs--this is a clear
>rule I don't think anybody has tried to deny.  So in the simple
>binary system of nobles vs. commoners, autarchs by definition must be
>"commoners"--a range from armigers to optimates to commonality to
>servants of the throne.
>
>Yes, the quote in IV does suggest that "most" (which is what, a range
>from 55% to 75%, or whatever percentage level where "most" gives way
>to "nearly all") of the minds at Severian's disposal (which does not
>reach all the way back to Ymar with any clarity of personality) are
>not certainly hereditary autarchs.  (There is a part somewhere in
>there where Severian recalls the fatal mistakes of many autarchs
>before him: one last visit to a lover, one last charge on the
>battlefield, etc.  For those who care, these fragments could perhaps
>be gathered up and laid out to add to the "depth of Autarchial Mind"
>beyond and before Appian.)  Hereditary autarchy is mentioned very
>briefly and not really sketched out beyond that--we really have
>no clue as to how successfully the potential was realized, at the
>individual level or on average.  We only know that the potential was
>there and it was realized to some degree.
>
>Then again, your assertion that of "all the personalities Severian
>now contains, only some of them are Autarchs" is quite astounding and
>I look forward to your fleshing this out!  Thecla as the rule rather
>than the exception?!
>
>Re: commoners talk about Valeria.  Right, they talk because she is a
>woman (and this is something of a red herring, since we =know= from
>the quote in IV that there are female autarchs--the point being that
>there hasn't been one in living memory, but emphatically =not= that
>women are forbidden) and she doesn't know the words of power (=this=
>is the point I keep trying to make: they know next to nothing about
>brain-eating, Yesod and all that, yet they know that she doesn't know
>the words of power which autarchs should know, and this is cause for
>them to talk--presumably to wonder what on Urth is going on, is she a
>sham or just more mentally incompetant than most?).
>
>Depending upon how much strength one wants to invest in the
>"opium of the masses: the population believes that the Autarch will
>somehow bring the New Sun" deal, this question of Valeria's validity
>ranges from 0 "Whitewater ho-hum" to 10 "Watergate apocalypse!"  That
>is, as usual, it depends upon the given application.
>
>=mantis=
>
>
>--------------- MESSAGE urth.v017.n007.7 ---------------
>
>From: mary whalen <marewhalen@yahoo.com>
>Subject: (urth) Autarchial dynasties
>Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>This is Sean Whalen (prion).
>
>I can think of a number of ways that a genealogical line of Autarchs
>could fail.
>
>The Autarch's children may not be near enough to eat his brain before
>someone else has to.  Whoever is near him when he dies may just eat
>his brain to become Autarch immediately.  There would even be plots to
>kill the Autarch and quickly eat his brains.
>
>The children may not want to eat their parents' brains, or be unable
>if they're very small.  The Autarch may not have had a chance to have
>any children.  A plot could exist to put contraceptive agents into the
>food supply to keep this from happening by the Exultants, who would
>have many plots  similar to this also.
>
>It's also possible to go insane from the process of becoming Autarch. 
>Gaining all those memories is very traumatic and could cause even one
>in two to go insane. The children may not be very lucky, especially as
>they will see their lives as part of their parents' perspective. 
>Smaller children would probably be even more susceptible.  They would
>have fewer memories of their own and be able to lose their identity
>easier.  These would never become "self-rulers."
>
>Plots could also exist to kill all the children and the Autarch at the
>same time, then feed his brains to someone else, or similar things,
>created by the Exultants or anyone else.  Things like this could also
>happen by accident.
>
>With all these problems, it's entirely possible that most of the
>Autarchs Severian remembers were originally commoners.  Few dynasties
>are very likely, with all the hatred the Exultants feel toward Autarchs.
>
>prion
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>--------------- END urth.v017.n007 ---------------
>
>
>*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/
>
>
/Serges
Internet Megantic
http://www.megantic.net/


*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/