URTH |
From: "Alex David Groce" <adgroce@eos.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n023 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:49:55 Yes, I'm typing--I could probably get my hands on a scanner but the lengths the Sev. articles were, it wasn't worth the hassle. I've sent those in already... I'm really surprised Simon Magus hasn't been done already--before I sign on for that one I'd better check how long it is--my next week at school will be largely occupied with grading homeworks, editing a group project, and writing a paper on T. S. Eliot's Ash Wednesday--but I'm guessing Simon Magus can't be too long... On Oct 16, 7:20pm, Alice Turner wrote: > Subject: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v019.n023 > Alex, > > If you have the time and patience (I gather you're typing, not scanning), > would you please, please put in Simon Magus (he corresponds to Ceryx in our > books) as well as Severian and Severus. I would be so grateful. And don't > forget to let the CE know right away, even before you send the articles in, > so they can take them off the "to do" list. Thanks! > > from alga: > > >>But yes, with reservations about Erebus, Abaia & co., who are echoing the > >>more dualist parts of Revelation. I said that Dr. Talos's play is > >>Manichaean. Which it certainly is--the gothic tradition to which > >Baldanders, > >>Talos and all horror novelists belong is necessarily dualistic. > > > answered by Sarge: > > >"Privatio boni" won't do for Gothic novels? _Necessarily_ dualistic? > >Umm...well you are a micro-organism of definite opinions, so I'll just > >gently suggest that I'm not convinced. > > > >When you say that the play is "Manichaean", I take it that you mean it > >implies a dualistic cosmology or theology. I suppose that it does; but then > >it implies lots of things. Indeed, the play struck me as a somewhat tacky, > >improvised kitchen-sink composite of just about every apocalyptic-second > >creation myth that I'd ever heard. (I'm surprised the Aesir don't put in an > >appearance.) I suppose this is in keeping with a play-within-a-novel that > is > >a "grand sword 'n sorcery revision of the New Testament". I really like > that > >assessment, by the way. > > and Alex: > > >Necessarily seems a bit much to me, as well. Maybe necessarily somewhat > >suggestive of dualism... Come to think of it, Lovecraft isn't > >dualistic--there's only a dark side... > > replies: > > First, thank you, Sarge, I like that phrase myself, come to think. > > Manichaeism: But Sarge, that's just exactly what Mani cobbled together, a > ragbag of a religion, borrowing from everything he knew of Buddhism, > Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Marcionism (Marcion taught that there were > two gods: capricious old Yaweh of the OT was similar to the Gnostic > Demiurge, while Jesus was son of the True God whose time would come). If > he'd known about Thor, he'd have thrown him in too. Mani would have been a > great scriptwriter for "Xena: Warrior Princess." And so would Dr. Talos, if > he got a decent editor. > > Mani's dualism came from the Zoroastrians (who supplied Meschia and Mechiane > to Dr. Talos) and he added the concept of Light vs. Darkness, so beloved of > gothic writers. Alex, you can't say that there is only Dark in Lovecraft, > for opposed to that is the normal world, represented, in Hollywood versions, > by pretty suburban streets. If you don't have a norm--Innsmouth or Arkham > before the horrors came--where's the scare? The Amurican Way of Life, that's > the Light. At least in novels. > > I will back-pedal a bit on "necessarily," but only a bit. Since the end of > the 19th century, the Dark is not necessarily a Christian dark, in fact most > often it isn't. Despite the crucifix hocus-pocus, we do not think of > vampires as demons of Satan; they inhabit their own Dark. Werewolves are > folkloric, not Christian. Hyde, though a demon, is a metaphor for what Freud > would call the id, not a damned soul. Dorian Grey hides Hyde's face behind > his own (sorry about that sentence), but again it's extra-Christian. > > Nevertheless, if only for convenience of term, I would argue that the gothic > tradition is Manichaean--with all the implicit messiness. Writers like C.S. > Lewis and Tolkien, who tidy up the mess, have made this even clearer, but > they are far ounumbered by the others. King now, a dualist to the Dark > Untidy Core. > > I don't want to get too off-topic here, so let me segue back. Once again, I > *don't* think Briah and Yesod form a dualist universe. Yes, I do think, as > Sev appears to do, that it is all One Big Thing. I do keep wondering about > how Abaia and Baldanders are faring under the New Sun, fine, I think--uh-oh! > If it ain't One Thing, it's Another. > > But nevertheless, Dr. Talos and his play do represent apocalyptic dualism, > Armagedon, Ragnarok, whatever. And it may be a mess, Sarge, but it belongs > too. > > -alga > > > > *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ > >-- End of excerpt from Alice Turner -- "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." - John 8:32 -- Alex David Groce (adgroce@eos.ncsu.edu) Senior (Computer Science/Multidisciplinary Studies in Technology & Fiction) '98-99 NCSU AITP Student Chapter President 608 Charleston Road, Apt. 1E (919)-233-7366 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~adgroce *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/