Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:47:39 -0600
From: James Jordan 
Subject: Re: (urth) Horn and Silk

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         No sneers from me. I've maintained this from the beginning, here 
and there. Certainly the Long Sun is based roughly on the gospels, though I 
think *Exodus* has some of Acts in it, and the end of *Exodus* is 
apocalyptic, like Revelation: the Whorl is coming to an end in fire.
         In Long Sun, Auk is most like Peter, the "stumbling, bumbling 
Peter" of the gospels (in common mythology anyway). But I think you are on 
target in suggesting Horn as something new as well as something old (just 
as Silk is both new and old, but like and unlike Jesus). Maybe the voyages 
have something to do with Paul, though Paul went out as an evangelist and 
Horn's mission is quite different -- a pilgrimage to the Holy Land (see 
below). As you write, Horn was already a disciple, a kind of Mark (the very 
young man who grew up to write a gospel). But if we superimpose Peter on 
Horn, then his voyage to horrible Green can be seen as Peter's journey to 
Rome, where he died -- though this is not in the New Testament, and 
protestants like me don't believe it happened, yet it is a central part of 
Wolfe's Roman Catholic committments.
         Horn's actual mission, to bring Silk back, and "corn-silk" for a 
new world, might be a spin on the Revelation to St. John, which climaxes 
with the return of Christ and a new heavens and earth. But I think it is 
more a pilgrimage to bring back powerful relics (see below).
         But for the triple political transformations that occur in the 
narrative, we would have to move beyond the New Testament into the 
political effects of the Christian gospel on the Roman Empire, on the 
tribes of northern Europe, etc. Also, the "incorporation" of a transformed 
version of pagan deities and myths is part of Roman Catholic history 
(rejected by us protestants, in the main). Wolfe believes there is much to 
this RC tradition. Thus, in Short Sun we start to get hints of Pas & Co. 
being somehow incorporated and transformed into the new "religion." And 
think of the "Mother." The old Earth Mother became united to the mother of 
Jesus and became a lot of the popular stuff about the Perpetually Virgin 
Mary of Roman Catholicism. Wolfe accepts this as part of the gathering and 
transforming effect of the Christian gospel. I suspect that in Short Sun 
he's spinning on this kind of thing, in its beginning stages. Eventually 
the Mother will become linked with the mother(s) of Messiah Silk. (?)
         The inhumi are kind of like the unconverted gentiles, who were 
dominated by demons before the gospel came. They have to be blended with 
the "Jews" into the new Church. Don't we see the beginning of this kind of 
process in the Short Sun, ESPECIALLY if the human-plant hybrid hypothesis 
is correct?
         With the Silk narrative as "inspired" while the Horn-Silk 
narrative is NOT "inspired," I think we are mostly moving beyond the New 
Testament as a whole and into the early Church. As I mentioned above, it 
looks like the Long Sun goes clear through Acts to Revelation.
         So, while were speculating: Maybe in part Horn's trip to the Whorl 
is like a medieval pilgrimage to the Holy Land to acquire relics to bring 
back home. Along the way, we encounter gentile Muslims (inhumi),  and when 
we get to the Holy Land, things are really bad there: It has fallen into 
bad shape and into bad hands. At the end, does Silkhorn return as a kind of 
Crusader to retake the Whorl?
         In all, I think that there are allusions, but Wolfe has 
constructed a new narrative that is not just an allegory -- though there 
are more allegorical elements in Long Sun than I've seen in Short Sun. 
Allusion rather than allegory would be the ticket, I think.
         At any rate, I think you are right on track with ONE aspect of the 
narratives.

Patera Nutria

At 10:51 AM 2/19/2002, you wrote:
>I'm tossing some ideas around here for play. Toss 'em back if you
>don't like 'em; play with 'em yourself if you do.
>
>I think one thing that needs to be addressed is the nature of the
>relationship of tBotSS to tBotLS, and I think the best model is the
>relationship between the Gospels and the other books of the New
>Testament.
>
>It has recently been suggested by several persons on this forum that
>Silk directly inspires LONG, thus giving it a greater level of veracity
>or accuracy than SHORT, or at least than those parts of SHORT that deal
>with Horn prior to his becoming bleshed with Silk (and possibly some
>nameless inhumu). Now, it seems to me that, given that Silk is very much
>a messianic figure for the people of the Short Sun Whorls, and that Horn
>is the author of one, but not the only, account of the deeds of Silk,
>we need to look at the Apostles for our models of Horn.
>
>My first inclination is to look at St. Paul. Quite aside from the obvious
>Odyssey parallel, one could easily see SHORT as in some ways paralleling
>the missionary voyages of Paul - complete with shipwrecks, the insistence
>of the principal on earning his way when the local people want to give him
>all he needs, etc., etc. There is, however, a very serious objection to
>the use of Paul as a model for Horn: Paul's (well, Saul's) persecution of
>the early Church, prior to his conversion, is a stark contrast to Horn's
>position as possibly Silk's first convert, and certainly a convert prior
>to the founding of the Silk cult.
>
>The next choice would seem to be Peter. I don't recall anything in LONG
>that would parallel Peter's moment of doubt - but then, there's nothing
>in LONG that really parallels the Crucifixion either: perhaps a less
>literal approach is required here. At that point, things become a little
>more promising. Horn, like Peter, is the first to recognize the unique
>nature of his Master. Horn stays at home (well, new-home) with his people
>until at last he sets out on a journey which results in his death.
>
>But that really doesn't work either. Another option would be John, and
>indeed one can see some parallels to John's apocalyptic visions in the
>Narr's experiences on Green and the Whorl.
>
>But to be honest, I think in the end any such search for specific
>parallels is going to fall apart, because Horn isn't any of them - he
>is a unique character, in a very different situation from first-century
>Judaea: and at the same time, he amalgamates aspects of at least these
>three, and perhaps several others of the Apostles and Evangelists. And
>the voyages of Paul thus become relevant and interesting again
>(especially if we think of Krait as a possible parallel to Luke ...
>horrors!). We then see that Silk, as a result of his experiences on
>his voyage, ultimately is indwelt by the Spirit of Silk ... or is it
>that Silk is indwelt by the spirit of Horn? This becomes complex and
>confusing.
>
>Comments? Sneers?
>
>
>--


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        No
sneers from me. I've maintained this from the beginning, here and there.
Certainly the Long Sun is based roughly on the gospels, though I think
*Exodus* has some of Acts in it, and the end of *Exodus* is apocalyptic,
like Revelation: the Whorl is coming to an end in fire.

        In Long
Sun, Auk is most like Peter, the "stumbling, bumbling Peter" of
the gospels (in common mythology anyway). But I think you are on target
in suggesting Horn as something new as well as something old (just as
Silk is both new and old, but like and unlike Jesus). Maybe the voyages
have something to do with Paul, though Paul went out as an evangelist and
Horn's mission is quite different -- a pilgrimage to the Holy Land (see
below). As you write, Horn was already a disciple, a kind of Mark (the
very young man who grew up to write a gospel). But if we superimpose
Peter on Horn, then his voyage to horrible Green can be seen as Peter's
journey to Rome, where he died -- though this is not in the New
Testament, and protestants like me don't believe it happened, yet it is a
central part of Wolfe's Roman Catholic committments.

        Horn's
actual mission, to bring Silk back, and "corn-silk" for a new
world, might be a spin on the Revelation to St. John, which climaxes with
the return of Christ and a new heavens and earth. But I think it is more
a pilgrimage to bring back powerful relics (see below).

        But for
the triple political transformations that occur in the narrative, we
would have to move beyond the New Testament into the political effects of
the Christian gospel on the Roman Empire, on the tribes of northern
Europe, etc. Also, the "incorporation" of a transformed version
of pagan deities and myths is part of Roman Catholic history (rejected by
us protestants, in the main). Wolfe believes there is much to this RC
tradition. Thus, in Short Sun we start to get hints of Pas & Co.
being somehow incorporated and transformed into the new
"religion." And think of the "Mother." The old Earth
Mother became united to the mother of Jesus and became a lot of the
popular stuff about the Perpetually Virgin Mary of Roman Catholicism.
Wolfe accepts this as part of the gathering and transforming effect of
the Christian gospel. I suspect that in Short Sun he's spinning on this
kind of thing, in its beginning stages. Eventually the Mother will become
linked with the mother(s) of Messiah Silk. (?)

        The inhumi
are kind of like the unconverted gentiles, who were dominated by demons
before the gospel came. They have to be blended with the "Jews"
into the new Church. Don't we see the beginning of this kind of process
in the Short Sun, ESPECIALLY if the human-plant hybrid hypothesis is
correct? 

        With the
Silk narrative as "inspired" while the Horn-Silk narrative is
NOT "inspired," I think we are mostly moving beyond the New
Testament as a whole and into the early Church. As I mentioned above, it
looks like the Long Sun goes clear through Acts to Revelation. 

        So, while
were speculating: Maybe in part Horn's trip to the Whorl is like a
medieval pilgrimage to the Holy Land to acquire relics to bring back
home. Along the way, we encounter gentile Muslims (inhumi),  and
when we get to the Holy Land, things are really bad there: It has fallen
into bad shape and into bad hands. At the end, does Silkhorn return as a
kind of Crusader to retake the Whorl? 

        In all, I
think that there are allusions, but Wolfe has constructed a new narrative
that is not just an allegory -- though there are more allegorical
elements in Long Sun than I've seen in Short Sun. Allusion rather than
allegory would be the ticket, I think.

        At any
rate, I think you are right on track with ONE aspect of the
narratives.


Patera Nutria


At 10:51 AM 2/19/2002, you wrote:

I'm tossing some ideas around here
for play. Toss 'em back if you 

don't like 'em; play with 'em yourself if you do.


I think one thing that needs to be addressed is the nature of the 

relationship of tBotSS to tBotLS, and I think the best model is the

relationship between the Gospels and the other books of the New

Testament.


It has recently been suggested by several persons on this forum that


Silk directly inspires LONG, thus giving it a greater level of veracity


or accuracy than SHORT, or at least than those parts of SHORT that deal


with Horn prior to his becoming bleshed with Silk (and possibly some


nameless inhumu). Now, it seems to me that, given that Silk is very much


a messianic figure for the people of the Short Sun Whorls, and that Horn


is the author of one, but not the only, account of the deeds of
Silk,

we need to look at the Apostles for our models of Horn. 


My first inclination is to look at St. Paul. Quite aside from the
obvious

Odyssey parallel, one could easily see SHORT as in some ways
paralleling

the missionary voyages of Paul - complete with shipwrecks, the
insistence

of the principal on earning his way when the local people want to give
him

all he needs, etc., etc. There is, however, a very serious objection to


the use of Paul as a model for Horn: Paul's (well, Saul's) persecution of


the early Church, prior to his conversion, is a stark contrast to Horn's


position as possibly Silk's first convert, and certainly a convert prior


to the founding of the Silk cult.


The next choice would seem to be Peter. I don't recall anything in
LONG

that would parallel Peter's moment of doubt - but then, there's
nothing

in LONG that really parallels the Crucifixion either: perhaps a=20
less

literal approach is required here. At that point, things become a
little

more promising. Horn, like Peter, is the first to recognize the
unique

nature of his Master. Horn stays at home (well, new-home) with his
people

until at last he sets out on a journey which results in his
death.


But that really doesn't work either. Another option would be John,
and

indeed one can see some parallels to John's apocalyptic visions in
the

Narr's experiences on Green and the Whorl.


But to be honest, I think in the end any such search for specific 

parallels is going to fall apart, because Horn isn't any of them -
he

is a unique character, in a very different situation from
first-century

Judaea: and at the same time, he amalgamates aspects of at least
these

three, and perhaps several others of the Apostles and Evangelists.
And

the voyages of Paul thus become relevant and interesting again 

(especially if we think of Krait as a possible parallel to Luke ...

horrors!). We then see that Silk, as a result of his experiences on

his voyage, ultimately is indwelt by the Spirit of Silk ... or is=20
it

that Silk is indwelt by the spirit of Horn? This becomes complex=20
and

confusing.


Comments? Sneers?




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