Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:59:27 -0500
From: James Jordan 
Subject: Re: Belated thoughts RE: (urth) Shadowy reflections on an

--=====================_7421221==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 10:04 AM 4/19/2002, Adam S. wrote:
> > Nigel observed:
> >
> >> Severian in some sense takes on the role of Christ when he resists
> >> Typhon's three-fold temptations, but as the author has insisted
> >> elsewhere, Severian is not Jesus...

Dan'l rejoined:
> >
> > and I insist that this is a case where the author either is -- I was
> > going to say "lying" but let me say instead "being deliberatly 
> disingenuous"
> > -- or doesn't know what he's talking about. Or maybe some combination of
> > the two. And it doesn't start with the temptation in the desert.
> >
> > I mean, come on: his career starts with baptism and ends with
> > resurrection. Before he meets Typhon, he raises the dead, heals the
> > sick turns water into wine, tames wild beasts, and (I think a case
> > could be made) banishes demons. Not to mention coming back from the
> > dead repeatedly, telling parables (what _do_ you think the stories
> > in the Book of Urth and Sky are?), etc., etc., etc.

Adam saith:

>Well, he isn't literally Jesus: he's not God, and his return isn't the
>Second Coming of Christ (and I've never understood how the events of UotNS
>are to be reconciled with the Christian eschatological scheme).  But I agree
>that the similarities between Severian and Jesus go far beyond "he's a
>Christian, and Christians are supposed to imitate Christ."
>
>When I read UotNS, it seemed to me that the portions of the book where
>Severian is the original Conciliator might have been Wolfe's attempt to
>imagine why someone might behave as Jesus does in the Gospel of Mark
>(reluctant to perform miracles, and telling those he's cured not to say
>anything about it).

         It's more than "imitating Christ" and less than "being a new 
Christ." Rather, the Christian conception is that Christians live "in 
Christ" and Christ lives "in them." Thus, Christians in a "mystical" way 
"fill out" the life of Christ, extending it so to speak, into further 
history. For Wolfe, as for any "high church" Christian (like myself), 
eating Christ's body and drink His blood in the sacrament is part of this.
         Though "Church activities" are way in the background in the 
Severian series -- about the only thing I recall is the Pelerines, and they 
aren't exactly an "orthodox Church" -- Wolfe is presupposing that Severian 
is "extending" Christ's life and work in this "Byzantine-esque" and 
therefore generally Christian culture.
         For Wolfe, such an "extension" means incorporating and 
new-applying the "best" of pre-Christian paganism; hence, Severian as New 
Sun is an Apollo-like "application" of Christ, as well as being a 
re-publication of reconciliation between God and man and all creation as 
the Conciliator.
         Severian is a special man with certain special God-given talents, 
provided at a certain time in history. He both abuses and properly uses 
these special talents. Those things are true, one way or another, for every 
person.
         Now, Severian's applying the "life in Christ" is only possible 
because aeons ago there lived and died and came to life again the 
"theoanthropos," who is mentioned only once. Severian is not a new 
"theoanthropos," but someone living out further the mission of the original 
and unique "theoanthropos."
         This is the sense in which Severian is a "Christian figure" and 
not an allegorical "Christ figure."
         As for how all this fits with conventional Christian eschatology; 
well, it does not have to. The events are in the midst of history, not at 
its full end. But the Bible repeatedly uses Flood language to refer to 
invading armies and other similar disasters, and also relates the Flood to 
baptism. Thus, Wolfe can have a Flood-event in the midst of history, which 
is a judgment on an old Ur-world and also a baptism of that world, ushering 
in a new Ushas world.
         Hence I don't think Wolfe is being "deceptive" when he says 
Severian is not a Christ-figure. He means the book is not an allegory where 
Jesus himself is being presented in a guise. I hope I've done a little 
justice to what he means when he says Severian is a "Christian figure." In 
terms of this, we should not be surprised when Severian and Silk do many 
Christ-like things and seem to play out the life of Christ in new 
situations; but we should also not be surprised when they often fail.
         All this is, of course, only one dimension of the narrative.
         Hope this helps.

Patera Nutria


-- 
--=====================_7421221==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


At 10:04 AM 4/19/2002, Adam S. wrote:

> Nigel observed:

> 

>> Severian in some sense takes on the role of Christ when he
resists

>> Typhon's three-fold temptations, but as the author has
insisted

>> elsewhere, Severian is not Jesus...


Dan'l rejoined:

> 

> and I insist that this is a case where the author either is -- I
was

> going to say "lying" but let me say instead "being
deliberatly disingenuous"

> -- or doesn't know what he's talking about. Or maybe some
combination of

> the two. And it doesn't start with the temptation in the
desert.

> 

> I mean, come on: his career starts with baptism and ends with

> resurrection. Before he meets Typhon, he raises the dead, heals
the

> sick turns water into wine, tames wild beasts, and (I think a
case

> could be made) banishes demons. Not to mention coming back from
the

> dead repeatedly, telling parables (what _do_ you think the
stories

> in the Book of Urth and Sky are?), etc., etc.,
etc.


Adam saith:


Well, he isn't
literally Jesus: he's not God, and his return isn't the

Second Coming of Christ (and I've never understood how the events of
UotNS

are to be reconciled with the Christian eschatological scheme).  But
I agree

that the similarities between Severian and Jesus go far beyond "he's
a

Christian, and Christians are supposed to imitate Christ."


When I read UotNS, it seemed to me that the portions of the book
where

Severian is the original Conciliator might have been Wolfe's attempt
to

imagine why someone might behave as Jesus does in the Gospel of 
Mark

(reluctant to perform miracles, and telling those he's cured not to
say

anything about it).


        It's more
than "imitating Christ" and less than "being a new
Christ." Rather, the Christian conception is that Christians live
"in Christ" and Christ lives "in them." Thus,
Christians in a "mystical" way "fill out" the life of
Christ, extending it so to speak, into further history. For Wolfe, as for
any "high church" Christian (like myself), eating Christ's body
and drink His blood in the sacrament is part of this. 

        Though
"Church activities" are way in the background in the Severian
series -- about the only thing I recall is the Pelerines, and they aren't
exactly an "orthodox Church" -- Wolfe is presupposing that
Severian is "extending" Christ's life and work in this
"Byzantine-esque" and therefore generally Christian
culture.

        For Wolfe,
such an "extension" means incorporating and new-applying the
"best" of pre-Christian paganism; hence, Severian as New Sun is
an Apollo-like "application" of Christ, as well as being a
re-publication of reconciliation between God and man and all creation as
the Conciliator.

        Severian
is a special man with certain special God-given talents, provided at a
certain time in history. He both abuses and properly uses these special
talents. Those things are true, one way or another, for every
person.

        Now,
Severian's applying the "life in Christ" is only possible
because aeons ago there lived and died and came to life again the
"theoanthropos," who is mentioned only once. Severian is not a
new "theoanthropos," but someone living out further the mission
of the original and unique "theoanthropos."

        This is
the sense in which Severian is a "Christian figure" and not an
allegorical "Christ figure."

        As for how
all this fits with conventional Christian eschatology; well, it does not
have to. The events are in the midst of history, not at its full end. But
the Bible repeatedly uses Flood language to refer to invading armies and
other similar disasters, and also relates the Flood to baptism. Thus,
Wolfe can have a Flood-event in the midst of history, which is a judgment
on an old Ur-world and also a baptism of that world, ushering in a new
Ushas world.

        Hence I
don't think Wolfe is being "deceptive" when he says Severian is
not a Christ-figure. He means the book is not an allegory where Jesus
himself is being presented in a guise. I hope I've done a little justice
to what he means when he says Severian is a "Christian figure."
In terms of this, we should not be surprised when Severian and Silk do
many Christ-like things and seem to play out the life of Christ in new
situations; but we should also not be surprised when they often
fail.

        All this
is, of course, only one dimension of the narrative. 

        Hope this
helps.


Patera Nutria



--=====================_7421221==_.ALT--