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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Friedman 
Subject: Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings

--- Robert Borski  wrote:
> Jeff Wilson quoting me first, then appending:
> "For starters the names "Juturna" and "Idas" derive from classical
> mythology,  and if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe
> to
> be inviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with "Baldanders,"
> which comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of
> fish in my opinion."
> "This would make Typhon an alien. While he =is= a tyrant from another
> star,
> he should be human as he is descended from emigrants of Urth stock."
> But again, unless you're willing to attribute this to nomenclatural
> sloppiness on the part of GW, the name "Typhon" _does_ indicate he is an
> alien. After all, aliens do not travel to Urth, decide they need an
> Urth-friendly name, and then consult a book on mythology as opposed to a
> book of saints. Similarly for new parents of a human child; they do not
> know
> their own names derive from saintly exemplars. This is because the
> saint/human-mythic/alien naming stratagem is an order imposed from
> without, by the author.

Not necessarily.  As Dan'l reminded us, "saint" doesn't go with
"human" but with "citizen of the Commonwealth".  Also, in some sense
it's imposed by the author, of course, but maybe as a custom or even
law of the Commonwealth.  Maybe there's a certain list of names that
everyone must be given.  (I think they're the names of the "eponyms",
but Mantis, at least, interprets the eponyms another way.)  Thus
Baldanders's name may not be a "wink" from Wolfe to the reader,
unrecognized by any character, to say that Baldanders is in a
different category from the other characters.  It may mean that he's
an immigrant to the Commonwealth, or that he's changed his name in
keeping with his removal of himself from the ordinary condition.
(This might justify the innkeeper's "pretended error", though it
really doesn't need justification.)  A difficulty with this
suggestion is that Severian never comments on whether or not names
are customary or familiar.

[snip a lot]

> Mindful of Buck Mulligan's comment about Stephen Dedalus' theory about
> Hamlet ("He proves by algebra that Hamlet's grandson is Shakespeare's
> grandfather and that he himself is the ghost of his own father"), I will
> not
> subject you to my various interpretations of how one individual is
> related
> to another, but I will append my list of nested names. If you know of
> any
> others, please feel free to add to it--I doubt the list is exhaustive.
> 1. Severian/Severa
> 2. Severian/Inire
> 3. Severian/Agia  (+g)
> 4. Agilus/Agia
> 5. Thecla/Thea
> 6. Camoena/Cumaean  (+u)
> 7. Katharine/Catherine (+c)
> 8. Catherine/Carina
> 9. Palaemon/Paeon
> 10. Burgundofara/Gunnie  (+ie) [The lone exception to the one letter
> addition, but hardly arguable.]
> 11. Peryton/Purn   (+u)
> 12. Tzadkiel/Zak
> 13. Domnicellae/Domnina
> 14. Nicarete/Thea  (+h)
> 15. Pelagia/Agia
> 16. Baldanders/Idas  (+i)
> 17. Famulimus/famula  [famula=Merryn]
> 18. Cyriaca/Cyby  (+b)
> 19. Dorcas/Casdoe  (+e)
> 20. Piaton/Pia
> 21. Melito/Miles   (+s)
> 22. peryton/pteriope  (+i)
> 23. Meschiane/Meschia

You missed one that may have simply been too obvious, and was
mentioned in this thread: Diuturna/Juturna.  Also Cyriaca/Ymar,
Merryn/Ymar, Meschiane/Thea, Hethor/Thea, Hethor/Roche,
Vodalus/Talos, Jolenta/Talos, Jolenta/Ultan, Jolenta/Jonas,
Squanto/Jonas, Squanto/Ultan, Kimleesoong/Miles, Kimleesoong/Melito,
Kimleesoong/Lomer, and Loyal to the Group of Seventeen/Mannea.  If
you're allowed to use a letter more than once that was in the first
name once, as in Cyriaca/Cyby and peryton/pteriope, then you have
Abdiesus/Erebus, Abdiesus/Abaia, Barbatus/Abaia, Malrubius/Abaia,
Hethor/Drotte, and many more.  Ash can be extracted from many names
(because he's the descendant of many of the characters?), as can

Imagine the amount of care Wolfe would have had to take to avoid
putting in any connections of this type that he didn't mean!

> Robert Borski (also known as rik stroeb--at least in various usenet
> circles)

Jay Fred forgot Morwenna/Lomer and Melito/Lomer.

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