From: "James Wynn"
<crushtv@HotPOP.com>
To: <urth@urth.net>
Subject: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:31:57 -0500
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The following is my response to A. Bin Talal who contacted me
off-list but
has offered of his own accord for my response to be posted
on-list.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for your comments.
You say:
In Thelxepeia's Mirrors you assert that Hyacinth is male chem,
your
arguments for Hyacinth being a chem are very compelling, but do not
explain
how she became Viron's top prostitute.
Response
Well, the story is somewhat vague on exactly how that occurred. It
probably
began while she was sold by her (I'll refer to Hyacinth in the
feminine)
father to be a housemaid. She was attractive and she began to make
money for
sexual favors. From there, she began to take on the necessary
modifications
to make even more money.
You say:
The other arguments about overpowering the pilot could be taken as
clues she
is not human but a chem, a chem female should be stronger then a
human
Response
True, and I consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that
she is
chem - not male. Actually, Marble DOES over-power Musk. This brings
up a
point that I should segregate those arguments that Hyacinth is a
MALE chem
from those that show she is MERELY chem.
You say:
The arguments for her being a male are alas unsound, you seem to
use
circular logic, she is a male because of 'thematic
requirement'(which you
assert there aren't any), the story about Apollo's lover and the
church, but
she represent that theme because she is a male!! in short you assume
she is
male, then conclude she is male, your conclusion is correct but you
can't
generalize it (I took a course on formal logic, never thinking I
will be
using it.
Response
I don't consider my arguments circular. I consider the story of
Hyacinthus
is to be a thematic *allowance* that she "could"
reasonably be male but not
a requirement. If one accepts that Hyacinth is chem, then the
concept of
homosexuality might just as reasonably be satisfied by Silk's
stated
doppelganger relationship with Sgt. Sand (in Blood's house in Calde
of the
Long Sun). On the other hand, that would still not be homosexuality
since
chems are sexually divergent like bios. Still, Wolfe *could* have
used Silks
"mentoring" relationship with Horn on the airship to
incorporate that aspect
of the Apollo-Hyacinthus relationship - Wolfe does a lot of
character
syncretism in the sub textual themes of the Long Sun (I haven't
yet
published my essay on Silk and Auk playing duo roles as Hephaestus
and as
Aristaeus, or how Mint, Marble, and Rose merge into the
Myrtle-nymphs, but I
will after I finish reading Robert Graves' "White
Goddess.")
My point is that while it "fits" for Hyacinth to be male,
she doesn't NEED
to be as IMO Incus NEEDS to be female because of the roll she
plays
regarding Quetzal (the demon-Dionysus) and the roll she plays in
the
Aristaeus story (not that Incus particularly needs to be a female,
but in
the sense that only a female could play those roles).
The most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male (there are
weaker
ones) are the following:
1. Hyacinth's statement:
"You know what I look like without all this [make-up and
clothes]?...Like a
boy, only with tits down to my waist."
2. In the Silks conversation with Horn on the airship, discussing
why he
tried to kill himself, Silk talks about Marble's lie about being
Moly and
the general plight of the chem population *due to the lack* of
female chems.
Silk further points out, "Some male chems were artisans and
farm laborers,
from what I know of them, and a few were servants - butlers and so
forth."
3. In the same conversation, Horn also says that Hyacinth behaves
physically
weak and in a female-identifiable manner, because she wants Silk to
be
attracted to her. Just as the fierce lynx, Lion (a female with a
male
name-note that this is specifically pointed out) pretends to be
kittenish
with Mucor.
Again, thank you so much for your interest, your arguments really
made me
think..
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From: "James Wynn" <crushtv@HotPOP.com>
To: <urth@urth.net>
Subject: RE: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:15:12 -0500
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After checking my sources, here's my response to Robert Borski's
questions
(thanks again Mr. Borski):
Robert Borski said
According to you she's a chem. So does this mean that she fabricated
the
story about her father being a head clerk at the Juzgado?
(Newt by my
reckoning.) And again, is she lying (or implanted with false
memories) when
she tells Auk that her father is a "pig's arse"?
My response:
No and no. Actually Silk says that he went to meet him. I sure her
father is
NOT Newt. Newt is a commissioner at the Juzgado in charge of the
Guard
finances. Hyacinth's father is a "head clerk" of the Fisc.
Silk also met
with an "officer" of the Fisc while he was there. Clearly
her father is well
down the chain of command. BTW: see the entry on Newt in
"Things of the Long
Sun".
There's no reason that her father could not be a chemical person.
And as
Silk discovered in Nightside, a talus can be bribed. What would a
talus do
with money? Marble explains in Exodus, "The same thing anyone
would do with
money, dear" So chems are not essentially different from bios
when it comes
to corrupt conduct. Is it so amazing that a chem parent would
prostitute his
child for money when bios sometimes do it?
Actually, the well-flagged concept that chems and taluses can be
corrupted
for money is sitting around in the story like an unfired gun in a
play. I've
fired it by tapping Hyacinth and her father as examples.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Robert Borski said
And who is the woman described as her dead mother that Hyacinth sees
at
Mainframe? Nettle seems to know her (I've theorized elsewhere
she's Lime)
My response:
The woman was Hyacinth's mother. It is easier for me to imagine how
chems
would "go to Mainframe" when they die than it is for me to
see how it is
done with bios. As for Nettle knowing her that's an interesting
question,
but unless her mother can be clearly identified with a bio female it
doesn't
change anything. I'm curious about your "Lime" theory. I
don't find it
explained in the Urth archives. In the archives I DID see you make
a
reference to a snide comment by Wolfe regarding Hyacinth's mother in
a "LS
question list" - what is this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Robert Borski said
Simply put, are there really that many chems running around outside
the
military and the religious orders, and are they as prone and subject
to
toxic parenting as your average bios?
My response:
Well there's not that many chems running around outside the military
--
relatively. Marble is the only one I'm aware of in a religious
order.
Non-military chems are rare relative to when the Whorl left Urth,
but they
are not non-existent. No adults in Viron remarks on chems as if
they'd never
seen one before. I suppose if you or I were to walk the streets of
Viron, we
would no doubt think we saw chems everywhere we looked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Robert Borski said
Since you're speculating about someone whose life history does not
end with
SHORT SUN, you also need to read Wolfe's follow-up series because
there's an
event in there that makes your theory even less tenable. I won't
spoil it
for you; suffice it to say I don't think rust is the causative
agent.
I cannot express the pleasure I get from these e-mails.
-- Crush
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From: "James Wynn" <crushtv@HotPOP.com>
To: <urth@urth.net>
Subject: RE: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:35:29 -0500
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I intended to clip the following Boski question from my response
since I
answered it in my other recent posting. Failing to clip it
makes it look
like I'm being sarcastic when that was NOT my intention.
Robert Borski said
Since you're speculating about someone whose life history does not
end with
SHORT SUN, you also need to read Wolfe's follow-up series because
there's an
event in there that makes your theory even less tenable. I won't
spoil it
for you; suffice it to say I don't think rust is the causative
agent.
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Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth
To: urth@urth.net
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--- James Wynn <crushtv@HotPOP.com> wrote:
> The following is my response to A. Bin Talal who contacted me
off-list
> but
> has offered of his own accord for my response to be posted
on-list.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks so much for your comments.
...
> You say:
> The other arguments about overpowering the pilot could be taken
as clues
> she
> is not human but a chem, a chem female should be stronger then
a human
>
> Response
> True, and I consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence
that she
> is
> chem - not male.
Why is that inconsistent with her being a healthy young human woman
who
has experience at fighting? She takes the pilot by surprise,
ramming her
thumbs into her (the pilot's) eyes and kicking her knees until she
falls
down. Seems quite reasonable to me. Silk thinks Hyacinth
blinded the
pilot, but Chenille (I think) disagrees. This is evidence that
Hyacinth
is *not* a chem--someone with superhuman strength could (I
imagine)
obviously blind a person this way by breaking her eyeballs, and
probably
obviously cripple her knees as well.
> Actually, Marble DOES over-power Musk. This brings up a
> point that I should segregate those arguments that Hyacinth is
a MALE
> chem
> from those that show she is MERELY chem.
Quite true.
...
> The most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male (there
are weaker
> ones) are the following:
> 1. Hyacinth's statement:
> "You know what I look like without all this [make-up
and
> clothes]?...Like a
> boy, only with tits down to my waist."
She doesn't mean she has a penis. Silk would have spotted that
(and then
would have nicknamed Hyacinth "Pinto"). I don't
think this comment is
particularly amazing for a slender young woman who has had a
breast
enhancement and tends to speak of her appearance deprecatingly.
Incidentally, it brings up what I think is one of the stronger
criticisms
of your theory: would Silk really have sex with someone he knew was
a
chem, and if not, could he really be fooled?
> 2. In the Silks conversation with Horn on the airship,
discussing why he
> tried to kill himself, Silk talks about Marble's lie about
being Moly
> and
> the general plight of the chem population *due to the lack* of
female
> chems.
> Silk further points out, "Some male chems were artisans
and farm
> laborers,
> from what I know of them, and a few were servants - butlers and
so
> forth."
I don't see this as a straightforward clue. In fact, I don't
see it as
evidence at all.
> 3. In the same conversation, Horn also says that Hyacinth
behaves
> physically
> weak and in a female-identifiable manner, because she wants
Silk to be
> attracted to her. Just as the fierce lynx, Lion (a female with
a male
> name-note that this is specifically pointed out) pretends to
be
> kittenish
> with Mucor.
This seems to be completely consistent with her being a tough young
woman
thanks to the life at Orchid's that Chenille describes.
By far the best clue I see that Hyacinth *could* be a chem is her
name, as
you pointed out. But I see nothing to contradict the
obvious
interpretation that she's a bio.
Speaking of Chenille and names, this seems like a good time to
restate my
theory that Chenille, who has an ambiguous name, could be a
chromosmal
male with testicular feminization syndrome (perhaps Tussah's
failed
attempt at a male heir?).
...
Jerry Friedman
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