Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:49:11 -0500
From: "Charles Reed" 
Subject: Re: (urth) The cenoby files


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Roy,

There's a very short quote in ON BLUE'S WATERS that mentions the painting, and I
thought you might like to consider it.  The scene is not too long after Krait
has saved Horn from the pit.  They have gone back to the sloop and Krait has
offered to help Horn find Seawrack, and while they are sailing out of the little
bay in which the sloop was moored, Horn begins addressing the extra powers of
sight that he has acquired -- how he sees everything as if it (and he) were in a
painting.  This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, "You
[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I put
them in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe."  (Tor hardback
page 228)

From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose) posed for
the painting.  The resolution of the puzzle is to realize that it wasn't
*really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her former and discarded
personality.  When maid-of-all-work Magnesia became Maytera Marble, she put away
her old life entirely.  Thus, when she said that she had posed for the painting,
that was a slip-up.  Magnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting.  Thus,
to maintain the lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to "confess" the lie
she told about the painting.  Marble felt "flattered" by the postulant's
admiration because she was the one who actually posed.

I think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing this
"lie" to Maytera Betel.  I don't recall if this is directly addressed in the
text, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because she was in
some kind of trouble and needed to hide, then I think you are correct in your
guess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia got rid of her
human-looking face.  If that is the case -- that Magnesia was hiding from
something and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her hid -- then Betel would
have gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia stayed hidden, since Betel
was an "accomplice" as it were.  And if Betel found out that Marble had admitted
to a postulant that she had posed as Molpe in the painting, Betel might very
well have been distraught at Marble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble didn't
suffer any more bouts of clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up,
forcing Marble to confess again and again so that the point would be hammered
home that she could not afford any more such mistakes.

If all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's efforts
to conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it?  It makes Betel a very
interesting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable one.  It seems
that both Rose and Marble were "hidden" in some sense by Betel, and that she
went to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to make sure her secretes stayed
secret.  It also raises the question of whether Magnesia was hidden because she
knew of Rose's pregnancy.  I can't think of a reason why this would necessitate
her going into hiding, though, so that might not be a very good guess.

Charles



"Roy C. Lackey" wrote:

> About that painting. On her second trip to the attic (LS3, 8) she was
> thinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway of the
> cenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves. She says she
> had lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe, "almost
> the only lie she had ever told". Yet she seems to have a memory of having
> posed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she "could not
> have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid". In other words, she was
> still just the maid at the time that picture was painted.
>
> Marble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She told the
> lie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful, the
> young postulant to understand that she had once been young, too; that
> somewhere inside she was still "that girl". Wolfe is particularly tricky
> about that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader. The
> memory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the comments
> about chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:
>
>     "She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid;
> but the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had agreed to
> let her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios. All
> artists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had used his
> mother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .
>     "She smiled at that, tilting her head far back and to the right. The
> hinges, then the other track.
>     "He had given them the picture when it was done."
>
> That picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when Marble still
> had her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive, slender
> sibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word in the
> following quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication of
> that picture: "A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had
> admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said
> that she had posed for Molpe." How and why should Marble have felt
> "flattered" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she repeatedly
> confess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves
> constituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years before Marble
> acquired some of Rose's parts and personality.
>
> Fifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose have
> independent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble of
> confessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the painting,
> Rose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that lie she was,
> by her own account, "thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble". So, since Rose
> remembers Marble when she was "that girl", either Marble suffered a rather
> precipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to give it up,
> possibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher who
> looked like a girl herself.
>
> Silk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch Marble
> another habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of "three faded
> pictures" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in Rose's
> lifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184 years?


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Roy,
There's a very short quote in ON BLUE'S WATERS that mentions the
painting, and I thought you might like to consider it.  The scene
is not too long after Krait has saved Horn from the pit.  They have
gone back to the sloop and Krait has offered to help Horn find Seawrack,
and while they are sailing out of the little bay in which the sloop was
moored, Horn begins addressing the extra powers of sight that he has acquired
-- how he sees everything as if it (and he) were in a painting.  This
reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, "You [Nettle]
told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I put them
in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe."  (Tor hardback
page 228)
From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose)
posed for the painting.  The resolution of the puzzle is to realize
that it wasn't *really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her
former and discarded personality.  When maid-of-all-work Magnesia
became Maytera Marble, she put away her old life entirely.  Thus,
when she said that she had posed for the painting, that was a slip-up. 
Magnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting.  Thus, to maintain
the lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to "confess" the lie she told
about the painting.  Marble felt "flattered" by the postulant's admiration
because she was the one who actually posed.
I think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing
this "lie" to Maytera Betel.  I don't recall if this is directly addressed
in the text, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because
she was in some kind of trouble and needed to hide, then I think you are
correct in your guess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia
got rid of her human-looking face.  If that is the case -- that Magnesia
was hiding from something and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her
hid -- then Betel would have gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia
stayed hidden, since Betel was an "accomplice" as it were.  And if
Betel found out that Marble had admitted to a postulant that she had posed
as Molpe in the painting, Betel might very well have been distraught at
Marble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble didn't suffer any more bouts
of clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up, forcing Marble to
confess again and again so that the point would be hammered home that she
could not afford any more such mistakes.
If all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's
efforts to conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it?  It makes
Betel a very interesting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable
one.  It seems that both Rose and Marble were "hidden" in some sense
by Betel, and that she went to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to
make sure her secretes stayed secret.  It also raises the question
of whether Magnesia was hidden because she knew of Rose's pregnancy. 
I can't think of a reason why this would necessitate her going into hiding,
though, so that might not be a very good guess.
Charles

 

 
"Roy C. Lackey" wrote:
About that painting. On her second trip to the
attic (LS3, 8) she was

thinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway
of the

cenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves.
She says she

had lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe,
"almost

the only lie she had ever told". Yet she seems to have a memory
of having

posed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she
"could not

have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid". In other words,
she was

still just the maid at the time that picture was painted.
Marble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She
told the

lie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful,
the

young postulant to understand that she had once been young, too;
that

somewhere inside she was still "that girl". Wolfe is particularly
tricky

about that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader.
The

memory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the
comments

about chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:
    "She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then,
only the sibyls' maid;

but the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had
agreed to

let her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios.
All

artists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had
used his

mother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .

    "She smiled at that, tilting her head far back
and to the right. The

hinges, then the other track.

    "He had given them the picture when it was done."
That picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when
Marble still

had her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive,
slender

sibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word
in the

following quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication
of

that picture: "A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall
had

admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered,
had said

that she had posed for Molpe." How and why should Marble have felt

"flattered" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she
repeatedly

confess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves

constituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years
before Marble

acquired some of Rose's parts and personality.
Fifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose
have

independent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble
of

confessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the
painting,

Rose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that
lie she was,

by her own account, "thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble". So, since
Rose

remembers Marble when she was "that girl", either Marble suffered
a rather

precipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to
give it up,

possibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher
who

looked like a girl herself.
Silk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch
Marble

another habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of "three
faded

pictures" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in
Rose's

lifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184
years?


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