Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:52:27 -0500
From: "Charles Reed" 
Subject: Re: (urth) The cenoby files


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"Roy C. Lackey" wrote:

> Charles Reed writes:
>
> [snip]
> >This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, "You
> >[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby
> >and I put them in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe."
> >(Tor hardback page 228)
> >
> >From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose)
> >posed for the painting.
>
> I don't know that the statement in OBW can be construed as
> "unambiguous"--Horn and Nettle were the source for both sets of data, after
> all.

Personally, I think that's as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.  It seems like
there are at least a few instances where some issue that has been confusing in a
previous book gets a clear-cut statement of fact in a follow-up book, especially
issues that GW didn't intend to be ambiguous.  So, for my two cents, if Horn
states flat-out that Marble posed for that painting, then I tend to accept such
a statement at face value.

> ...Magnesia wasn't trying to hide; she became a sibyl because parents were
> complaining that their children were now being taught by a laywoman. _All_
> women take a new name when they become sibyls.

I stand corrected.  Sometimes I get a germ of an idea and then get carried away
with it.  I've looked through my books and can find no evidence that Magnesia
became Maytera Marble in order to "hide" from something.  And since that appears
to be the case, then my previous explanation of Marble's reasons for confessing
this lie makes no sense.  Please pardon my over-enthusiastic theorizing. :-)

> I don't see how Magnesia could have failed to know of Rose's pregnancy; not
> even a chem could have been that ignorant of human physiology. Magnesia
> would have seen pregnant mothers all the time at the school. In any event,
> she was at the cenoby both before and after Rose's pregnancy.

Not that it's really relevant (since my "theory" was justifiably shot down), but
Patera Pike was kept in the dark about Rose's pregnancy, so it's at least
conceivable that Magnesia/Marble could also have been kept in the dark about
it.  I don't recall that bit about Magnesia being pressed into service because
the parents were upset at having their kids taught by a laywoman, however.  Do
you recall where that is?

At the very least, however, Rose's pregnancy and Magnesia's transformation into
Maytera Marble seem to be related, if only because they happened around the same
time (50+ years ago).  And it's not unreasonable to assume that they are
directly related:  Rose, being pregnant and needing to hide that fact from
Patera Pike would not be able to do a whole lot of teaching, which would give
rise to the need for a substitute.  Magnesia knew how to write, how to
calculate, and was already employed at the manteion, so she was a reasonable and
cost-effective solution.

NOW TO THE GOOD STUFF:

I think I've finally worked out the solution of the painting, but it's rather
convoluted.  Maybe this theory will be shot down as well, but I actually think
this one hangs together.  Please read the whole sequence before you pronounce it
horse-hockey:

1. While still the sibyls' maid, MAGNESIA posed for the painting.

2. Perhaps ROSE is alive at the time the picture is painted, but perhaps not --
it doesn't really matter.  What does matter is that at some point
MAGNESIA/MARBLE tells ROSE that she had posed for the painting.

3. One day a chubby postulant was standing with MAYTERA ROSE, admiring the
painting, when Rose claims that she had been the one to pose as Molpe.  There
might be several reasons for this lie, one of which I'll put forward
momentarily.  Whatever the reason, she lied and claimed that she was the one who
had posed.  The postulant was absolutely incredulous -- even openly shocked at
what she was hearing -- either because she couldn't see any resemblance between
Rose and the beautiful girl in the picture, or because she already knew who the
real model had been.  My personal opinion about why ROSE lied is that when this
lie was told, MARBLE was at least within earshot and might have been standing
right next to ROSE and her postulant, and that ROSE told the lie knowing that
MARBLE would overhear it.  (Now that's pretty damn cold.)

4. Even if not very likeable as a person, Rose is a very devout woman.  She
feels terrible about the cruelty of this particular lie and confesses it to
Maytera Betel at every shriving.

5. Rose dies and some of her parts get incorporated into MAYTERA MARBLE.

6. When going up to the attic one day to get a better look at the airship,
MAYTERA MARBLE notices the painting and some very bizarre memories are evoked.
She remembers (as MAGNESIA) posing for the painting while still a maid.  She
also remembers (as ROSE) having lied to a postulant about posing for the
painting, as well as ROSE'S subsequent confessions.  But her identity is so
confused -- especially so soon after incorporating her new parts and new
memories -- that she begins mixing things together.  That's how we get a
sentence like this:  "A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had
admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said
that she had posed for Molpe."  She recalls ROSE'S memories of having lied and
*also* recalls MARBLE'S feelings at the time -- first the feeling of being
flattered by the postulant's praise and then the feelings (created by the lie)
of being thin, faceless, and old.

What do you think?

Charles



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"Roy C. Lackey" wrote:
Charles Reed writes:
[snip]

>This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes,
"You

>[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the
cenoby

>and I put them in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for
Molpe."

>(Tor hardback page 228)

>

>From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not
Rose)

>posed for the painting.
I don't know that the statement in OBW can be construed as

"unambiguous"--Horn and Nettle were the source for both sets of
data, after

all.
Personally, I think that's as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets. 
It seems like there are at least a few instances where some issue that
has been confusing in a previous book gets a clear-cut statement of fact
in a follow-up book, especially issues that GW didn't intend to be ambiguous. 
So, for my two cents, if Horn states flat-out that Marble posed for that
painting, then I tend to accept such a statement at face value.
...Magnesia wasn't trying to hide; she became
a sibyl because parents were

complaining that their children were now being taught by a laywoman.
_All_

women take a new name when they become sibyls.
I stand corrected.  Sometimes I get a germ of an idea and then
get carried away with it.  I've looked through my books and can find
no evidence that Magnesia became Maytera Marble in order to "hide" from
something.  And since that appears to be the case, then my previous
explanation of Marble's reasons for confessing this lie makes no sense. 
Please pardon my over-enthusiastic theorizing. :-)
I don't see how Magnesia could have failed to
know of Rose's pregnancy; not

even a chem could have been that ignorant of human physiology.
Magnesia

would have seen pregnant mothers all the time at the school. In
any event,

she was at the cenoby both before and after Rose's pregnancy.
Not that it's really relevant (since my "theory" was justifiably shot
down), but Patera Pike was kept in the dark about Rose's pregnancy, so
it's at least conceivable that Magnesia/Marble could also have been kept
in the dark about it.  I don't recall that bit about Magnesia being
pressed into service because the parents were upset at having their kids
taught by a laywoman, however.  Do you recall where that is?
At the very least, however, Rose's pregnancy and Magnesia's transformation
into Maytera Marble seem to be related, if only because they happened around
the same time (50+ years ago).  And it's not unreasonable to assume
that they are directly related:  Rose, being pregnant and needing
to hide that fact from Patera Pike would not be able to do a whole lot
of teaching, which would give rise to the need for a substitute. 
Magnesia knew how to write, how to calculate, and was already employed
at the manteion, so she was a reasonable and cost-effective solution.
NOW TO THE GOOD STUFF:
I think I've finally worked out the solution of the painting, but
it's rather convoluted.  Maybe this theory will be shot down as well,
but I actually think this one hangs together.  Please read the whole
sequence before you pronounce it horse-hockey:
1. While still the sibyls' maid, MAGNESIA posed for the painting.
2. Perhaps ROSE is alive at the time the picture is painted, but
perhaps not -- it doesn't really matter.  What does matter is that
at some point MAGNESIA/MARBLE tells ROSE that she had posed for the painting.
3. One day a chubby postulant was standing with MAYTERA ROSE, admiring
the painting, when Rose claims that she had been the one to pose as Molpe. 
There might be several reasons for this lie, one of which I'll put forward
momentarily.  Whatever the reason, she lied and claimed that she was
the one who had posed.  The postulant was absolutely incredulous --
even openly shocked at what she was hearing -- either because she couldn't
see any resemblance between Rose and the beautiful girl in the picture,
or because she already knew who the real model had been.  My personal
opinion about why ROSE lied is that when this lie was told, MARBLE was
at least within earshot and might have been standing right next to ROSE
and her postulant, and that ROSE told the lie knowing that MARBLE would
overhear it.  (Now that's pretty damn cold.)
4. Even if not very likeable as a person, Rose is a very devout
woman.  She feels terrible about the cruelty of this particular lie
and confesses it to Maytera Betel at every shriving.
5. Rose dies and some of her parts get incorporated into MAYTERA
MARBLE.
6. When going up to the attic one day to get a better look at the
airship, MAYTERA MARBLE notices the painting and some very bizarre memories
are evoked.  She remembers (as MAGNESIA) posing for the painting while
still a maid.  She also remembers (as ROSE) having lied to a postulant
about posing for the painting, as well as ROSE'S subsequent confessions. 
But her identity is so confused -- especially so soon after incorporating
her new parts and new memories -- that she begins mixing things together. 
That's how we get a sentence like this:  "A chubby postulant whose
name she could not recall had admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old
Maytera Marble, flattered, had said that she had posed for Molpe." 
She recalls ROSE'S memories of having lied and *also* recalls MARBLE'S
feelings at the time -- first the feeling of being flattered by the postulant's
praise and then the feelings (created by the lie) of being thin, faceless,
and old.
What do you think?
Charles

 

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