From: jismulkstis@att.net
Subject: (urth) Re: Digest from  urth@urth.net
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:31:32 +0000

Sorry, "Muskrat" has already been taken.

Granted, I don't write often, but I've
posted twice using "Muskrat".

I know this seems petty, but muskrats are
special to me.

However, if "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus" is really your name,
"Muskrat" is yours without any argument.
> Message-Id: 
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> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:46:24 -0800
> To: urth@urth.net
> From: Michael Andre-Driussi 
> Subject: (urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> Catharine Margaret Garth, aka Candy, is the massive (250+ pound) pale
> prostitute who wears white (a virginal color) which is sometimes (e.g., as
> she is singing at the bar in the Consort hotel) mistaken for blue (blue and
> white being the colors of Mary, mother of Jesus, iirc).  To escape from
> Belmont, the mental hospital, she has to put on the uniform of a black
> nurse (note the contrast); after which, since people assume she is a nurse,
> she begins to act like one, and becomes a healer.
> 
> The witch in black (opposite to Candy's white), known as Madame Serpentina
> and Marie, uses her own strip-show seduction to manipulate Ozzie Barnes

> early on in the novel, but despite all that she seems to be a virgin (the
> gypsy Pete says that King would kill her if she had a non-gypsy boyfriend,
> if I read the passage right, and this seems like a real threat rather than
> an exagerration).  She is also dark skinned, as the black nurse points out.
> 
> Osgood Myles Barnes.  (Why do three of the four have hidden names beginning
> with "M"?  I heard that question 16 years ago and now I ask it myself.
> Does it have to do with the fact that "M" is at the middle of the
> alphabet?)  He talks about being Popeye, but it isn't until after Phil
> Reeder, the crazy drunken sailor changes clothes with him at Belmont (and
> loses the glass eye) that he really becomes Popeye, complete with towering
> Olive Oyl (Robin Valor), Sweet Pea (Little Ozzie), and Bluto (Phil Reeder).
> In addition to this, he is the magician Oz and a satyr.
> 
> James Stubb.  Ozzie says his original name, "Stubbe," means "room."  Which
> does not ring any bells for me, unless it points to "Free as the

> House/Country of Oz" thread.
> 
> Three of the characters have something about their eyes.  Three of the
> characters have Freudian fixations which are psychological explanations of
> their vices/character imbalances (Candy's gluttony; Ozzy's lust; Stubb's
> inability to feel).
> 
>         EYES            FIXATION   OZ CHARACTER
> Candy   na              Oral       Dorothy?
> Witch   contact lenses  na         Ozma?
> Ozzy    glass eye       Genital    Wizard Oz
> Stubb   glasses         Anal       Tin Woodman?
> 
> I wonder if Candy is "normal girl of Earth" Dorothy to the Witch's Ozma
> "sorcerer-princess of Oz"?  I make the tentative link between Stubb and Tin
> Woodman mainly because I think Stubb's "hard boiled" persona shows his
> inability to feel (the Tin man's problem) as well as the slighter details:
> Stubb vaguely suggests to me something cut (like the stump of a felled
> tree); Stubb is the one who retrieves the axe after the accident in front
> of Free's house.
> 
> =City of Oz under seige=

> To fend off the demolition, each of the four does what he/she can.  The
> witch summons up a chthonic entity that stops the police from going around
> the house to the back door (unless this is done by Free himself?), and so
> confuses them that they break into the neighbor's house (Mrs. Baker's).
> Candy throws water, which first chases the cops away and then freezes on
> the porch, turning it into a slippery trap; later she slicks herself up
> with baby oil to inhibit their attempts to remove her from the house. Stubb
> tries calling all the politicians he knows, and this brings the tv news.
> Barnes is the one who calls in all the business men who mob Sergeant
> Proudy, including: Mick Malloy (ex-cop, life insurance salesman); Steve
> Marshal (life insurance); Nate Glasser with P, E, G & D (investment
> counselors); and Sim Sheppard (Florida real estate).
> 
> Nathanial Glasser is the one who wears blue-tinted spectacles (naturally).
> This seems to be a clear pointer to the Emerald City of Oz, where everyone

> wears  green spectacles.  More specifically, it suggests the first man who
> is seen wearing these curious glasses: the Guardian of the Gates of Oz.
> And Nate Glasser is, in fact, a guardian of the portal of Free's house
> (pointing to "Free as the House/City of Oz").
> 
> In the first Oz book, the Army of Oz is a single soldier (wearing green
> spectacles).  In the second book, iirc, Oz is overrun by an invading army,
> a coalition of militants from each of the four member-states of Oz, and
> after the Ozma restoration a more modern army of many generals and one
> private is established in Oz.
> 
> The fact that of the 100 or so businessmen there are four named suggests
> comparison to the coalition army, and the fact that the Florida real estate
> salesman has to wear beachcomber attire in winter shows that he represents
> "the South," much as the coalition army is made up of members from North,
> South, East, and West, with the differences marked by a bit of color in
> their uniforms.
> 

> The fire axe which is used against the door of the house and later beans
> Sergeant Proudy in the head, while it looks to be a normal axe, in the
> landscape of Oz it can only belong to one figure: Nick Chopper, the Tin
> Woodman.  (Not that Officer Williams, who was using the axe, is to be
> associated with the Oz hero: as noted above, I begin to wonder if Jim Stubb
> is a version of Nick Chopper.)
> 
> So in FLF, the Oz elements emerge in such a way as to reinforce the notion
> that Free's house is the land of Oz, or at least the Emerald City: only
> this time the beseigers (cops and wrecking crew) are set apon by a
> coalition army from four points of the compass (whereas in the second Oz
> book the coalition army is laying seige to the city).
> 
> Again, I'm not an expert on Oz or Freud, so I stand by ready for
> corrections on matters relating to either one or anything else.
> 
> =mantis=
> 
> 
> 
> -- 


> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:54:39 -0500
> From: William Ansley 
> Subject: Re: (urth) Nicknames?
> To: urth@urth.net
> Message-id: 
> MIME-version: 1.0
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus"  wrote:
> 
> >Ummm...I just joined...are we supposed to be using Vironseque 
> >nicknames?  Will my existing name do - it is that of an animal...
> >
> >Is there a digest available?  I forgot to ask...
> 
> First, welcome.
> 
> I certainly do not speak in any official capacity for the list, but 
> there is no requirement to use a "Vironesque" nickname unless you 
> want to; I have never used one. Your existing name is perfect, 
> actually. _Ondatra zibethicus_ or the  Common Muskrat - you fit right 
> in with Nutria and alga.
> 
> There is a archive of the list available at .
> 

> If you want to subscribe to a digest version of the mailing list, 
> send an email to urth-request@urth.net with the text:
> 
> digest true
> 
> as the only text in the body of the message.
> 
> Ranjit Bhatnagar, the very generous fellow who is responsible for the 
> existence of this list in the first place has prepared a summary of 
> all you should need to know to participate in the Urth mailing list 
> here:
> 
> http://www.urth.net/urth/join.txt
> 
> This should be the same info you get via email when you join the list.
> 
> I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say. You can't be 
> any crazier than the last few people who have joined the discussion. 
> 
> -- 
> 
> William Ansley
> 
> -- 

> Message-ID: <040301c2a0c1$eafac330$a6c56596@ABTOSHIBA>
> From: "Andrew Bollen" 
> To: 
> Subject: (urth) OT: Nigerian scams
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:03:41 +1100
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> Not a Wolfean take on Nigerian "4-1-9" scams, but very damn funny
> nonetheless: Check out http://www.quatloos.com/brad-c/directory01.htm.
> Record of a guy's counter-scamming of the scammers. "The Porcine Princess
> Chronicles" and "The Senator's Beach Pledge" both highly recommended.
> 
> Quatloos is a magnificent site devoted to chronicling and exposing all the
> various low-life scams going around - very useful if you have relatives or
> friends about to quaff on some kind of snake oil.
> 
> Slightly more Wolfean perhaps is
> http://www.quatloos.com/cm-omega/cm-omega.htm. Visions of the land of milk &
> honey, millianarian yearnings, fundamentalism & dumb greed combined in one

> of the most pathetic displays of human stupidity ever.
> 
> - AB
> 
> 
> 
> -- 

> From: "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus" 
> To: urth@urth.net
> Subject: Re: (urth) Nicknames?
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:15:32 +0000
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> Message-ID: 
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> 
> >First, welcome.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> >Your existing name is perfect, actually. _Ondatra zibethicus_ or the  
> >Common Muskrat - you fit right > in with Nutria and alga.
> 
> That's the one!  In honour of Deacon Mushrat from `Pogo'...
> 
> 
> >If you want to subscribe to a digest version of the mailing list,  
> >This should be the same info you get via email when you join the list.
> 
> Yes, thanks; I have now (hopefully) attended to this.  I either didn't get 
> or didn't notice the E-mail in question when I posted the preceeding 
> message.  I will try to poke around in the archives, time permitting.
> 
> >I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say. You can't be any 

> >crazier than the last few people who have joined the discussion.
> 
> Many would disagree!  (However, I suppose that's my cue for a tedious brief 
> introduction...)  I can tell a hawk from a handsaw well enough when the wind 
> is in some quadrants, but only on some days...  I am an ageing, irritable 
> recluse in increasingly poor health, living in poverty with my young family 
> in the Blue Mountains of Australia (which very nearly got burned a couple of 
> days ago in bushfires).  I was introducted to `Shadow' in the mid-1980s by a 
> friend who mistook me for an intellectual, and I immediately realised that I 
> had encountered a uniquely significant fantasy author.  I read `Shadow', I 
> believe, in a single weekend session, and then immediately sought out the 
> rest of the series.  The rest, as they say is history.  What more is there 
> to say?
> 
> Oh, yes - I have kept in touch with the development of the Long Sun and 
> Short Sun series, of course, as well as gathered everything else I can find. 

>   I hope that they _never_ attempt to film the Book of the New Sun, but I 
> can see in my mind's eye a deluxe anniversary hardback edition sumptuously 
> and strikingly illustrated by Barry Moser's beautiful woodcuts...
> 
> Other authors whom I particularly enjoy include (off the top of my head) 
> Ambrose Bierce, James Branch Cabell, J. G. Ballard, Louis-Ferdinand Celine, 
> Amit Chaudhuri, R. A. Lafferty, Alasdair Gray and Jonathan Carroll.
> 
> Look forward to talking,
> 
> ->Zx<-
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* 
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> 
> 
> -- 

> Message-ID: <002f01c2a0cf$216b9bd0$d5456c42@akt>
> From: "Alice K. Turner" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: (urth) Nicknames?
> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:38:19 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> 
> You can use any name you like, but if you're going to be posting a lot that
> unwieldy sig is going to cause some annoyance.
> 
> -alga
> 
> > Ummm...I just joined...are we supposed to be using Vironseque nicknames?
> > Will my existing name do - it is that of an animal...
> >
> > Is there a digest available?  I forgot to ask...
> >
> > ->Zx<-
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> >
> > The proliferation of children who can reach the heights of computer
> creation
> > brings to light a basic feature of the computer itself - it is
> > infantile...[t]he microcomputer is above all a game and is infantile.  But
> > it is also very dangerous.  We need to know whether it does not also

> > 'infantalize'.
> >
> > -Jacques Ellul, `The Technological Bluff'
> > ________________________________________________
> >
> > The disciple Hui-K'e asked Bodhidharma, "Please help me to quiet my mind."
> > Bodhidharma said, "Bring me your mind so that I can quiet it."  After a
> > moment Hui-K'e said, "But I can't find my mind."  "There," said
> Bodhidharma,
> > "I have now quieted your mind."
> >
> > -Charles Luk
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> >
> > Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion.
> >
> > -Democritos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 


> Message-ID: <000a01c2a0e1$1c610000$f53cc6d8@rclackey.stic.net>
> From: "Roy C. Lackey" 
> To: "urth" 
> Subject: Re: (urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 00:46:50 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> mantis wrote:
> >Catharine Margaret Garth, aka Candy, is the massive (250+ pound) pale
> >prostitute who wears white (a virginal color) which is sometimes (e.g., as
> >she is singing at the bar in the Consort hotel) mistaken for blue (blue and
> >white being the colors of Mary, mother of Jesus, iirc).  To escape from
> >Belmont, the mental hospital, she has to put on the uniform of a black
> >nurse (note the contrast); after which, since people assume she is a nurse,
> >she begins to act like one, and becomes a healer.
> 
> I can't address the OZ stuff, so just a few notations. Pink is often

> mentioned in connection with Candy, especially her hands. She was wearing a
> garish pink robe in the morning before she took Free to breakfast. She
> changed into a pink sweater and black skirt. Her open-toed sandals were also
> pink. FWIW.
> 
> >I wonder if Candy is "normal girl of Earth" Dorothy to the Witch's Ozma
> >"sorcerer-princess of Oz"?  I make the tentative link between Stubb and Tin
> >Woodman mainly because I think Stubb's "hard boiled" persona shows his
> >inability to feel (the Tin man's problem) as well as the slighter details:
> >Stubb vaguely suggests to me something cut (like the stump of a felled
> >tree); Stubb is the one who retrieves the axe after the accident in front
> >of Free's house.
> 
> I took his name to be related to his height. As in stubby. The "hard boiled"
> persona is straight out of old books/movies. IIRC, at one point Stubb even
> recalls one such movie role played by Robert Mitchum. I don't see Stubb as
> hard boiled; he just doesn't wear his emotions on his sleeve. He is often

> sympathetic to people, especially Candy.
> 
> As for assigning OZ roles: there is one point, near the end of chapter 14,
> when Candy and Barnes are together in the hotel lobby, before they have ever
> gone up to Serpentina's room. She had just spoken to Stubb on the house
> phone. She said **to** Barnes: "Seventh floor, room seventy-seven, Ozzie.
> We're off to see the wizard." So how can Barnes be the wizard? Only the
> witch and Stubb were up in the room.
> 
> -Roy
> 
> 
> -- 

> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:22:13 -0600
> Subject: (urth) OT: Leviathan 3
> From: Adam Stephanides 
> To: 
> Message-ID: 
> Mime-version: 1.0
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> I'm putting in a plug for this recent anthology, which is one of the best
> original fantasy-sf anthologies I've read.  (Most of the stories are
> original; the few that aren't originally appeared in obscure places.)  There
> are a number of well-known contributors: Moorcock, Stableford and Emshmiller
> on the sf side and Remy de Goncourt, Theophile Gautier, and Rikki Ducournet
> on the "mainstream" side. There are also some good pieces by less well-known
> writers, including a twisted take on Oz by Stepan Chapman (author of The
> Troika).  It's co-edited by Jeff VanderMeer (though he's not a contributor),
> and published by the Ministry of Whimsy (www.ministryofwhimsy.com), which

> published the above-mentioned The Troika.
> 
> My excuse for discussing Leviathan 3 on this list is that many of the
> stories, though not all, revolve around books or libraries, and there is a
> sequence of Borges-inspired short stories running through the anthology
> (though these latter are actually among the weaker contributions).
> 
> --Adam
> 
> 
> -- 

> Message-Id: 
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:28:32 -0800
> To: urth@urth.net
> From: Michael Andre-Driussi 
> Subject: Re: (urth) FLF: the four and who/what they are
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> Roy wrote:
> >I can't address the OZ stuff, so just a few notations. Pink is often
> >mentioned in connection with Candy, especially her hands. She was wearing a
> >garish pink robe in the morning before she took Free to breakfast. She
> >changed into a pink sweater and black skirt. Her open-toed sandals were also
> >pink. FWIW.
> 
> Good points.  I took the pinkness of her fingers as pointers to her pale
> skin color.  Her pink and black clothes were worn, iirc, when she was "off
> duty."  In any event, I believe there are strong connections between Candy
> and the color white, just as there are links between the witch and black.
> 
> Re Stubb, Roy wrote:

> >I took his name to be related to his height. As in stubby.
> 
> Sure, that's there.  I didn't mean to exclude it.
> 
> >The "hard boiled"
> >persona is straight out of old books/movies. IIRC, at one point Stubb even
> >recalls one such movie role played by Robert Mitchum.
> 
> Odd thing about that movie: I couldn't find it using the very useful
> Internet Movie Database.  Sure, Robert Mitchum shows up, but there is no
> movie listed with him and "Linda Loring," in fact, iirc, there is no
> listing for a "Linda Loring" at all.
> 
> From the notes in FLF, one might think that "Hellcats of the Navy" is about
> Naval pilots.  It is about a submarine.
> 
> I will agree that my accuracy was off in writing that Stubb has an
> inability to feel: after all, I previously wrote that he was choleric!  To
> ammend it, I would say that Stubb wants to have a "heart," that is, he
> should have feelings of a more positive, sanguinary nature; and this
> wanting to have a heart is a tenuous link to the Tin Man (who wants to have
> all feelings).

> 
> >As for assigning OZ roles: there is one point, near the end of chapter 14,
> >when Candy and Barnes are together in the hotel lobby, before they have ever
> >gone up to Serpentina's room. She had just spoken to Stubb on the house
> >phone. She said **to** Barnes: "Seventh floor, room seventy-seven, Ozzie.
> >We're off to see the wizard." So how can Barnes be the wizard? Only the
> >witch and Stubb were up in the room.
> 
> There are several references to the movies (including that one reference to
> "The Wiz").  In the case you cite, I think the points are: the witch is a
> magic user; they are going to see her.  (If the musical had contained a
> song about visiting Glinda, a trip which happens in the book, iirc, maybe
> they would have used that song.) The same song is used again, when they
> have escaped from Belmont, Little Ozzie sings it to the group (Little
> Ozzie, Big Ozzie, Nimo, Stubb, and Candy) and I don't think they are really
> going to see a wizard at that point, at all.  (But I do wonder at how this

> group might map to Dorothy and her four companions, because Nimo seems to
> paint himself as the Scarecrow with his parody of the Scarecrow's song "If
> I Only Had a Brain."
> 
> Dorothy: Candy
> Scarecrow: Nimo the Clown
> Tin Man: ?
> Cowardly Lion:?
> Toto: ? )
> 
> As for Ozzie being the Wizard Oz (aside from the name, which is as obvious
> as stub = short).  In the land of Oz there are two clear classes of magic:
> there is real magic (practiced by the witches, Ozma, and others) and there
> is stage magic, i.e., fakery (practiced by Wizard Oz).  While Ozzie's
> novelties for sale are mainly pornographic items or toy puzzles, he does
> have some of those "practical joke" tricks, like the sneezing powder that
> goes off when Proudy grabs him (which causes him to sneeze and contributes
> to the accident with the axe: the axe-ident).  This use of simple
> dime-store trickery is very much like Wizard Oz in DOROTHY AND THE WIZARD
> IN OZ.
> 
> Re Ozma and Dorothy, I should point out the details of their hair: Ozma's

> hair is, I believe, dark and long (down her back); Dorothy's hair, contrary
> to the movie, is blonde and shoulder-length (true, it is in long braids for
> the first book, but once Ozma is introduced [book 2], Dorothy's hair is as
> I reported above, afaik).  A nice physical match for the crowning glories
> of the witch and Candy.
> 
> A word about Sgt. Proudy: he is villainous not because he serves the
> eviction notice but because he is a corrupt cop --  he bullies money out of
> Candy and hits her.  There seems to be more corruption in the 13th
> Precinct: that other cop is getting money out of Barney the loan shark.
> 
> =mantis=
> 
> 
> 
> -- 

> From: "James Wynn" 
> To: 
> Subject: RE: (urth) Nicknames?
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:33:06 -0600
> Message-ID: 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> >>"ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus"  wrote:
> >>
> >>Ummm...I just joined...are we supposed to be using Vironseque
> >>nicknames?  Will my existing name do - it is that of an animal...
> 
> 
> >William Ansley [mailto:wansley@warwick.net] wrote:
> >I certainly do not speak in any official capacity for the list, but
> >there is no requirement to use a "Vironesque" nickname unless you
> >want to; I have never used one. Your existing name is perfect,
> >actually. _Ondatra zibethicus_ or the  Common Muskrat - you fit right
> >in with Nutria and alga.
> 
> > I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say. You can't be
> >any crazier than the last few people who have joined the discussion.

> >
> 
> Crush offers:
> I second William's optimism and if you want a Vironese nickname  I can also
> suggest that you merely shorten your last name to Zibeth or even Zibet which
> are other names for the civit cat.
> 
> Heck you could even use "Musk" in that case which is also synonymous with
> "civit" (as president of the crazies, I felt obliged to offer that one ;-D).
> 
> -- Crush
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 

> Message-ID: <20021211190237.31521.qmail@web14401.mail.yahoo.com>
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:02:37 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jerry Friedman 
> Subject: (urth) Two FLF details
> To: urth@urth.net
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> I carelessly deleted a post that mentioned Linda Loring.  She's a
> character in at least two of Raymond Chandler's novels--Philip
> Marlowe is in love with her.  Robert Mitchum played Marlowe in
> _The Big Sleep_ and _Farewell, My Lovely_, but Linda Loring isn't
> in those movies.
> 
> The IMDB appears to search only for real people, not characters.
> 
> Also, Unnamed City has a TV station called WROM (in Stubbs' 
> questioning of Mrs. Baker).  The only TV station by that name that
> I could find is or more likely was in Rome, Georgia--which can't be
> the setting of FLF, at least in our universe.  Maybe a reference
> to a Rome that's more important to Wolfe?
> 
> -- 
> Jerry Friedman
> 

> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> -- 

> From: "James Wynn" 
> To: 
> Subject: RE: (urth) Two FLF details
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:48:01 -0600
> Message-ID: 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> Actually IMDB **will** search for characters (just enter Philip Marlowe and
> you'll see it is true). It appears no movie (listed there) used the
> character or at least the name "Linda Loring".
> 
> -- Crush
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Friedman [mailto:jerry_friedman@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:03 PM
> To: urth@urth.net
> Subject: (urth) Two FLF details
> 
> I carelessly deleted a post that mentioned Linda Loring.  She's a
> character in at least two of Raymond Chandler's novels--Philip
> Marlowe is in love with her.  Robert Mitchum played Marlowe in
> _The Big Sleep_ and _Farewell, My Lovely_, but Linda Loring isn't
> in those movies.
> 

> The IMDB appears to search only for real people, not characters.
> 
> Also, Unnamed City has a TV station called WROM (in Stubbs'
> questioning of Mrs. Baker).  The only TV station by that name that
> I could find is or more likely was in Rome, Georgia--which can't be
> the setting of FLF, at least in our universe.  Maybe a reference
> to a Rome that's more important to Wolfe?
> 
> --
> Jerry Friedman
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 

> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Subject: RE: (urth) Nicknames?
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:34:12 -0700
> Message-ID: <11CFA5F21C19884E882246F39DBE4B1A0D744A@SDCEXMB01.corp.siebel.com>
> From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" 
> To: urth@urth.net
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> > >Your existing name is perfect, actually. _Ondatra zibethicus_ or the
> > >Common Muskrat - you fit right > in with Nutria and alga.
> >=20
> > That's the one!  In honour of Deacon Mushrat from `Pogo'...
> 
> Ah, bravo! Another appreciator of the great American humorists --=20
> mine own nom du Viron coming indirectly from Don Marquis, I salute
> you, sah.
> 
> 
> --Blattid
> 
> 
> -- 

> Message-ID: <000e01c2a15c$1d770e00$093ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>
> From: "Roy C. Lackey" 
> To: "urth" 
> Subject: (urth) FLF: The planes
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:27:25 -0600
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> There are some problems with both the _High Country_ and the B-17 that I
> can't resolve. At the end of the book Free tells the four boarders that
> there are two ways to leave the _High Country_, either the gizmo or the
> B-17. Use of the gizmo entails time-travel; the B-17 doesn't. There is no
> doubt that when the four were put aboard the B-17 it was January 1983. Free
> also makes reference to the fact that the year on board the _High Country_
> is the same as the year on the ground, or 1983. There is also no doubt that
> the B-17 came from the W.W. II era, as did the crew. The crew's lack of
> contemporary knowledge, their clothing, and their artifacts (guns,

> cigarettes) all point to the 1940s. Okay, but the problem is, how did the
> B-17 get from 1942 to 1982?
> 
> Judging from the backdoor of Free's house, use of a gizmo involves passage
> through some sort of field in order for the person/object to be transported
> through time. In other words, when the gizmo on _High Country_ was used,
> neither the plane itself nor the other persons/objects on it were
> transported. The _High Country_ got to 1982 the hard way, by flying
> continuously for forty years. When the B-17 appeared in November 1982, how
> did it get there?
> 
> Improbable as it may seem, the duffel-coated Whitten in 1982 seems to be
> totally ignorant of the fact that the _High Country_, in that year, is
> completely abandoned and has been for many years. In fact, judging from the
> dates on papers the four found, and the globe which still showed many former
> colonies as still being colonies, and the natural decay of fabrics and other
> items, the plane seems to have been abandoned since the war years. After

> all, once the first use of the gizmo to travel to 1952 was successful, the
> original purpose for building the _High Country_ no longer mattered. All the
> future history books showed that the government powers were not and never
> had been threatened. There was no reason for the powerful men to stay on the
> plane, so they didn't. The only purpose the plane then had was as a future
> staging platform for the gizmo. The OSS wanted to go into the future to get
> a jump on future gadgetry that might be useful to them in their operations.
> 1982 was the year they chose to travel to and set up a base of operations,
> which is when and why Whitten bought the Flying Carpet. The orders that
> Whitten thought came from 'on high' didn't come from the plane, they were
> planted by his future self, after he deserted.
> 
> At least, that's how I see it. But I can't explain the B-17.
> 
> -Roy
> 
> 
> -- 

> Message-Id: 
> Mime-Version: 1.0
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> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:01:09 -0800
> To: urth@urth.net
> From: Michael Andre-Driussi 
> Subject: Re: (urth) FLF: The planes
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> Roy wrote:
> >There are some problems with both the _High Country_ and the B-17 that I
> >can't resolve. At the end of the book Free tells the four boarders that
> >there are two ways to leave the _High Country_, either the gizmo or the
> >B-17. Use of the gizmo entails time-travel; the B-17 doesn't. There is no
> >doubt that when the four were put aboard the B-17 it was January 1983. Free
> >also makes reference to the fact that the year on board the _High Country_
> >is the same as the year on the ground, or 1983. There is also no doubt that
> >the B-17 came from the W.W. II era, as did the crew. The crew's lack of
> >contemporary knowledge, their clothing, and their artifacts (guns,

> >cigarettes) all point to the 1940s. Okay, but the problem is, how did the
> >B-17 get from 1942 to 1982?
> >
> >Judging from the backdoor of Free's house, use of a gizmo involves passage
> >through some sort of field in order for the person/object to be transported
> >through time. In other words, when the gizmo on _High Country_ was used,
> >neither the plane itself nor the other persons/objects on it were
> >transported. The _High Country_ got to 1982 the hard way, by flying
> >continuously for forty years. When the B-17 appeared in November 1982, how
> >did it get there?
> 
> When Buck Whitten brought his team from August 20, 1942 to November 5,
> 1982, they came in the B-17.
> 
> Presumably the gizmo on High Country can be set to project outside of the
> High Country as well as in a doorway (in the High Country or in Free's
> house).  The B-17 then flies through the sky-door and into 1982.
> 
> "On the other hand, if _High Country_ or some successor . . . was still

> flying and we wanted to take something big home [to 1942], we could do that
> in the plane" (ch. 59, 392).
> 
> Thus the HC gizmo can make a plane-size door, the little gizmo can make a
> man-size door.
> 
> I hope this resolves your initial problem so we can move onto the next:
> what is the perspective from the flight-crew of the B-17?  That is, those
> two guys (one Army, one Navy) seem to have had some experience in flying
> through time, and yet they have not lived in the 1980s, or if they have
> they have not known it.  If they are the original crew who flew in with
> Buck, then maybe they flew back to 1942 . . . otherwise they have been
> living in 1982 for a couple of months (November 5 to January 22), under
> wraps by Buck & Co. (so they would not know they were in the 80s), but
> during which time they would use up their Camel cigarettes and matches.
> 
> That is (and maybe this is just a refinement of your original problem): the
> B-17 seems to have come directly from 1942 specifically for this one

> mission, and to have gone back to 1942 right after.  But this is not a
> problem if the 1982 High Country gizmo is set to "outdoor" sky-door mode
> and the target year of 1942.
> 
> The reason this one plane and crew must be used for =all= traffic to and
> from High Country is plain.
> 
> I note that the plane left after it dropped off the four.  It might have
> gone back to 1942 (lessen the chance of time-contamination) or it might
> have landed back in 1982 for simple refueling prior to going up again to
> get Ozzie Barnes, the one of the four who did not go through the indoor
> gizmo portal.
> 
> Also note: the three who went through the gizmo on High Country did not
> teleport to Free's house--instead they would have found themselves in the
> abandoned High Country of whatever year the gizmo is set to, and have to be
> ferried down to the surface via B-17.
> 
> =mantis=
> 
> 
> 
> -- 


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