From: "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus"
Subject: (urth) Silk out of time / Blushas? Grushas? Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:06:45 +0000 Don: >why couldn't Marble's clock be correct? >3. Marble is absolutely decrepit. I find it hard to believe that an >advanced chem capable of self-repair and engaged in only mildly strenuous >activity would decay so soon. Pardon my obtuseness, but is it anywhere specified that Marble's memories of her life as a secular chem are located on the Whorl? She might have had an earlier life on Urth, as did many people who were forced aboard. Nutria: >Time did not "stop" for anyone. Silk had an transcendent moment, and > the >only way a temporal being can understand such a thing afterwards > is to >sort it out into various pieces and temporal events. Well, when trying to establish these matters with some sort of definitiveness, I believe that an ounce of study of the actual text in question can sometimes be worth a ton of theorising in one direction or another. For that reason, allow me to quote briefly from NLS Ch1 (are there standard abbrevations for titles here?); during his enlightenment, Pa. Silk "watched outside a clockwork show whose works had stopped", and saw (among other things): "- dead Patera Pike mumbling prayers as he slit the throat of a speckled rabbit he himself had bought." This seems to me to represent a vison or perception of a moment in Pa. Pike's past life, rather than the appearences of his shade elsewhere in the book. If this is the case, it would tend to support Nutria's perception of the experience as a transcendent - or transtemporal - one for Silk himself, rather than a stoppage of time for the entire Whorl, as _Silk_ is being shown things from various strands of time, the past and possible the future. That's how I read it, anyway... Also; >Is it possible that Blue-Green is Urth-Lune in another Banggnab? Is it >possible that Silk is the Conciliator of this Banggnab, and that is why he >has a link with Severian? >Of course this raises questions, such as how the Whorl made this trip, and >whether astral travel back to Urth is time-travel or some kind of >parallel-universe travel. Of course such a thing is _possible_, but I don't myself know just how _probable_ it is. I base this opinion especially on IGJ Ch22, 'The Barbican and the Bear Tower', which relates the visit/return of Horn/Incanto's party to Nessus. Duko Rigoglio is one of those inhabitants of Nessus who were forced to board the Whorl. He returns to the street outside his house because of his emotional attraction to the spot (as I understand it). Throughout the chapter, it becomes obvious that the spot has aged greatly since the Duko lived there; the party guess anywhere from 1 900 to 2 500 years. If what is involved in this sort of non-physical travel (call it 'astral' if you _must_) is a passage from one BangGnab to another, why would there be a linear progression in the local timeframe of Nessus? It seems to me that something altogether more intricate is involved here... If this amount of time has elapsed since Rigoglio's involuntary departure, how does it synchronise with the general consenus that the Whorl has been travelling for three hundred years? And, further, this visit of the party to Nessus occurs some years before Severian brings the New Sun, which destroys Nessus and all else. If Rigoglio was abducted during the reign of Typhon, is it possible that he was kept in storage on Urth somewhere for an appropriate period of time? It would appear likely that the lapse of time in Nessus as experienced by Rigoglio on his return actually corresponds (in Urth time) to the period for which he has been gone on the Whorl. Otherwise, why have the elapsation at all? Blattid (tip o' the hat to archy!): >"You may be right about this, and certainly I would not go >so far as to say that you were wrong, but still ...!" (Place >_that_ quote for double credit.) Mundus vult decipi! >What makes me think that Silk's experience has some kind of >internal sequentiality: he has the sense of someone (the >Outsider) speaking into both his ears. Now, I may simply put too much >emphasis on that detail, but it seems to me that >speech has a kind of inherent sequentiality to it. >Of course, this may simply mean that he _remembers_ it that way. Moreover, it occurs in an instant in the middle of the prosaic activity of a ball game, which is not interrupted by it. I suspect that Mr. Wolfe is relating something corresponding to the classic 'mystical' experience, which occurs _outside_ time rather than as a consequence of time somehow 'stopping'. Mr. Wolfe specifies that what Silk retains of the experience which he can consciously relate is far smaller and less profound that the totality of the experience as it was originally granted to him. Whether he relates it sequentially, or whether it occurs sequentially, it is impossible to explain it in a fashion conformant to its nature, which is, if you like, superhuman. It certainly doesn't resemble the experience of an embolism! * 4WIW, I read a long I/V with Mr. Wolfe shortly before I joined this forum, in which he said something to the effect that _all_ the 'clues' were present in the books, but that they were only placed there _once_, as he didn't intend to insult the intelligence of his readers. Something like that, anyway. I would tend to the view that, which I would of course be greatly interested to hear anything which Mr. Wolfe had to say concerning the planning and nature of his works, he is a skilled professional author, who inserted everything necessary to have his works understood TO THE EXTENT TO WHICH HE INTENDED in the works themselves. Therefore, I support the call to closer textual study of works which are being theorised about...speaking as a hypocrite, to be sure! Zibethicus the Lame (thus named by a fellow New Sun reader!) PS: While I'm here, my copy of RTW (Return to the Whorl), the TOR paperback, is absolutely crammed with the most annoying typos throughout. I've got forty-something markers in it to that effect - I just counted it. Is this just my experience, perhaps because I was reading it aloud, or has anybody else noticed it? ->Zx<- _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail --