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Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 10:00:50 -0500
From: Joe Cilluffo 
Subject: RE: (urth) Blue-Ushas; Green-Urth -- Problems

Nutria wrote:

         Anyway, let's run with this, and see where it might lead.
that GW was not joking, and also that his note was precise: Green is
not Ushas. If it is, then Ushas must be around somewhere, and must be
         One can see possibilities here. The city of the sewers is
but so is the underwater city on Blue.
         Green is analogous to the old pre-gospel world that continues 
alongside the New Creation inaugurated by Jesus. It has been suggested
the Neighbors are like the pre-Christian philosophers, the inhumi like 
pagan gentiles in need of redemption, and the invaders from the Whorl 
(humans) are like the Christian world. The Whorl itself (especially
is like Judaism, and Silk is like Jesus (for his narrative tracks the 
gospels pretty well, and then moves into Acts and Revelation).
         For Wolfe, the Christian world (Blue) is a sorry mess, but not
sorry as mess as the world outside of Christendom, which invades 
Christendom (like the inhumi) and needs to be redeemed by Christians 
behaving as they should (like Silk).>>

First off, wow, excellent synthesis of it all! 

<<       1. I think what we need to look for is an indication of how, or
indication THAT, the coming of the New Sun split Urth into Old Urth and
Ushas, and split Severian as well (since he seems to be on Green/Urth,
Marc has pointed out, and we know that he was on Ushas).>>

I'll take a stab at the HOW, as your synthesis above seems to be an
explanation of the THAT. : ) Regarding how it happened, could it be that
the same bifurcation that Burgondofara experienced also happened to the
planets themselves?  


What about Silkhorn being an "aspect" of Severian?  His walking around
unconsciously garbed like a torturer and carrying the torturer's sword
suggests this, and could be evidence of a split of Sev.

<<         3. What was Typhon aiming for? He was aiming for Blue/Green;
know that. It makes sense to me that he might have sent the Whorl in a 
large circle to come back to Urth/Lune, where he could wake up as a 
two-headed god to be worshipped by people trained to do so by Pas. But
assumes Green is Lune, which we are rejecting in this hypothesis. Could 
Typhon have known not only of the future flood, but also of the future 
splitting? It seems to me that he would have to have known this, for
hypothesis to work.>>

Hmmm, that's a little tougher, but I have two musings on the subject.
First, we all assume that Typhon was aiming for Blue and Green, yet that
is not necessarily the case.  He launched the Whorl, but may not have
launched it with any specific destinations in mind -- it doesn't seem to
be beyond the technology of the Whorl or its Crew to travel until they
think they have found suitable planets or until the deterioration of the
Whorl forces them to pick the next best thing.  GW has stated that
Typhon did not know that the inhumi were on Blue/Green, so perhaps
Blue/Green were not the specific destinations planned for the Whorl
(otherwise, how could he have picked them and not known about the
inhumi?).  So perhaps the Whorl itself ended up (sort of) where it began
without knowing.  

My second rumination also has to do with Typhon and his intentions.
Much has been made over the change in character from the megalomaniacal
Typhon to the more beneficent Pas, who is the kind of guy who if he
loves something sets it free (to paraphrase Quetzal's Hallmark moment).
Perhaps this was GW's twist on the old saw that the Lord works in
mysterious ways.  Typhon may unwittingly have been the instrument of the
Increate (that is, God) to carry out His will.  GW has described Sev and
the NS as the story of a Christian, not Christ, and of a bad man
becoming good.  Similarly, maybe the SS/LS are in part the story of a
bad man (Typhon) doing good and carrying out, however unintentionally,
the Lord's will.  And if that is so, that could explain how the Whorl
ends up at Blue/Green Urth/Ushas even if Typhon did not know of the
future flood and splitting.  He did not have to know that the splitting
would take place, he simply had to send the Whorl out and the Crew
brought it back (probably unwittingly themselves) "home" afterwards,
carrying out the Lord's will to repopulate the Urth after the flood a la
Moses on the Ark.  That part carries out the Lord's will.  As for Pas'
plan, well, the Crew continue to try to carry it out and the end of RTTW
when they reboard the Whorl and launch it into space in search of a
planet to colonize.

<<     4. Why and HOW do both planets become planets of intelligent 
plants?  Some of Marc's old stuff might play in here, of course.>>

OK, I plea for help here.  Where are the intelligent plants???  I've
read the whole NS/LS/SS troika and haven't seen any intelligent plants.
Are the inhumi "plants gone bad" and I'm just missing it?  I'm sure
there is something fundamental here I did not pick up on, please help!  

<<         5. What happened to the humans who lived through the coming
of the 
New Son on Green-Urth and Blue-Ushas? Severian still seems to be
Green in human form. What of the rest? Did they "evolve" into Neighbors
maybe also inhumi? How? And, is there evidence? >>

I think the evidence for this are all the parallels that Horn
unwittingly draws between the Neighbor culture and "ours."  

<<         e. But I can see lots of objections to this, and so doubtless
you all.>>

I agree, but the answer to that I think probably is that GW was
borrowing themes and allegories instead of simply recasting event for
event from the Bible, much the way he plucked Yesod and Briah from
Kabbalistic theories without meaning to borrow it wholesale.


Very fun! I really enjoyed your introductory weaving together of it all!

- Shell


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