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From: "Chris" 
Subject: Fwd: FW: FW: (urth) Typhon, Sev, Silk
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:11:13 +0000

Posting for Dan'l, only a couple brief comments of my own.

>Still can't post.
> > >I have a slight complaint with this: "You can't just kill the Devil,
> > >the game is over." This kind of trivializes the whole Problem Of
> > >Evil[tm] as a game God is playing with humans; Wolfe, as a Catholic
> > >Christian, won't buy that approach for a New York minute.
> > I don't know that it trivializes it, but it seems off. I believe that
> > Wolfe believes in Satan, it's as an archetypal figure, a feature of
> > world.
>My first reaction was to echo Josh's "If?" but I understand (or think
>I do) what you're getting at, after your additional remarks. I think
>I agree, to some extent, that Wolfe tends toward something resembling
>the traditional Hebrew idea of "the satan," but that same tradition
>also had very real demons (like the ones Christ went around driving
>out; like Tiamat and Beelzebul and such) - indeed, by the time the NT
>was written "the satan" had become the distinct person, Satan, to whom
>Luke's Jesus refers several times (notably in the 'house divided'
>bit and in "I saw Satan fall from Heaven;" whether this Satan is also
>the "devil" who tempts Jesus in the wilderness can be argued). As
>a rather conservative Catholic christian, Wolfe is not likely to demur
>from the relatively-clear witness of the NT on the matter.
> > You can't kill the archetype, you can only kill manifestations
> > of the archetype (which Severian does). That is, until the
> > second coming/judgment/end-of-the-universe I suppose, where
> > you're free to start over by different rules and tell Satan
> > he's not allowed to play.
>Ah, yes, the Cosmic Reset Button ...
> > What I don't understand, though, is if Typhon had the
> > technology to scan his personality and he had clones to work
> > with, why didn't he use them earlier back on Urth? Unless he
> > believed in a soul which wouldn't be transferred by the
> > scanning process ... in which case, Typhon transferring
> > himself to a body (Silk's or a hypothetical clone) wouldn't
> > be intended as a way for Typhon to live on as Typhon, but
> > rather an attempt to create a biological successor, a "son"
> > who would be exactly like his father (who after all was
> > perfect in his own mind).
>An interesting analysis, but one that does not, I think,
>take sufficient account of Typhon's personality as presented
>in the texts ... It seems that, unlike the process that
>produced Mister Million in 5HC, the scanning process in LS
>is non-destructive. (Kypris says as much when she tells Silk
>that he can be scanned and still continue with his Whorl-ly
>So: suppose Typhon produces a clone, then scans his own
>personality into it. The result would be two Typhons running
>around, a situation which neither, given his monstrous ego,
>would find tolerable. There have been plenty of stories about
>someone doing pretty much that and then the main conflict
>is between the original and the duplicate ... They would
>not be willing to share power, so there _would_ be a struggle.
>If Typhon-2 wins, Typhon-1 loses; if Typhon-1 wins, Typhon-2
>is gone, and the whole process is for nothing. In short,
>there is nothing to be gained.
>But wait! Suppose, then, that Typhon-1 went ahead and made
>the clone, scanned himself into it, and then put it into the
>same kind of "sleep" as the "Sleepers" on the Whorl, until
>the death of Typhon-1? That won't do, for two reasons: first,
>because it still involves his dying, which Typhon clearly
>finds intolerable; and second, because Typhon-2 would not be
>a full duplicate of Typhon-1; all experience from the time of
>scanning to the moment of death would be lost -- again
>We can, I think, take it as given that Typhon is smart enough
>(and sufficiently aware of his own nature) to work all this
>out. So he comes up with the Piaton Process, which (as it
>doesn't involve him dying at all) he finds infinitely preferable.

Re: both responses, yes, Satan as "role" is more or less what I was getting 

Re: Dan'l's analysis below, I don't think it disagrees with what I did say; 
the key point in both ways of describing it is that the copied Typhon is not 
THE Typhon. He achieves no personal, subjective immortality out of the deal 
and thus resorts to Piaton. This makes a difference w.r.t. his motives.

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