From: jismulkstis@att.net
Subject: (urth) Re: Digest from  urth@urth.net
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:06:37 +0000

In reply to my mail, Dave Rolsky  recommends
Feersum Endjinn for those who wish to try Iain M. Banks.

A word of warning:  about a quarter of that book is written 
phonetically (Feerum Endjinn = Fearsome Engine).  I found that
this interfered with my enjoyment, just as having to decode
Pig's dialog in Return to the Whorl did.  There's a stylistic
similarity for you.

I recommend Excession or Look to Windward for an intro to Banks.
Use of Weapons is also very solid, but I thought the ending 
came somewhat out of the blue.  Excession is thoughtful space
opera with the best twist on the Climactic Space Battle I've 
ever seen.  Look to Windward is about, among other things, why 
one should bother staying alive.

I can illustrate one stylistic difference between Banks and Wolfe
by noting that I doubt Mr. Wolfe would ever have one of his characters
refer to another as a "tentacled scumbag fuckwit".

Muskrat

> Message-ID: <006401c305c5$ff6a0420$d5456c42@akt>
> From: "Alice K. Turner" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: (urth) Moorcock
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:17:24 -0400
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> 
> 
> From Dan'l. quoting somebody:
> 
> > >(As an aside, did anyone ever write worse about sex than Heinlein.
> >
> > Yep. Asimov. But not _much_ worse.
> >
> >
> > >My wife still won't believe that anyone could call nipples "those
> > >twin spiggots of desire" or claim that one woman's "nipples went
> > >spung").
> >
> > These are classic, aren't they ... Up there with "five minutes of
> > squelching noise."
> 
> Wrong. No one ever, ever, including hack porn writers, EVER, EVER wrote
> worse sex than Heinlein. With possibly the momentary exception of a
> long-forgotten 9-day wonder of the 60s or 70s called -The Harrad
> Experiment-. And I am something of an expert here. I should probably say,

> for members of this group, that IMO Sturgeon wrote bad sex too, though not,
> by leagues, in the same abysmal class.
> 
> -alga
> 
> 
> 
> -- 

> From: "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus" 
> To: urth@urth.net
> Subject: (urth) Gray, Wolfe, Heinlein
> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:12:34 +0000
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> 
> 
> Malco:
> 
> >But the text does give the impression that
> >an alternative was at least possible and that it
> >depended largely on Lanarks actions.
> 
> ?
> 
> But Nastler _intended_ Lanark to fail...you might recall that Nastler 
> described the sort of success which Lanark fantasised about when he accepted 
> the gig - people listen to him at the council, his speech sets profound 
> reforms in place, he returns in triumph to a saved Unthank and is reunited 
> with a chastened and finally appreciative Rima...and then says that he is 
> not going to provide Lanark with anything of the sort, because "[i]f I give 
> you an ending like that I will be like ten thousand other cheap 

> illusionists!  I would be as bad as the late H. G. Wells!  I would be worse 
> than Goethe.  Nobody who knows a thing about life or politics will believe 
> me for a minute." (p. 492)
> 
> >All of these things echo with Severians story
> 
> That's right...and it clarifies one of the commonalities I would point out 
> between the fictions of Mr. Gray and Mr. Wolfe; their 'heros' fail, blunder, 
> are confused and fail to understand important things.  Perhaps this humanity 
> is a part of their attraction...
> 
> >And you are _spot on_ about Sludden/Blair… *g*
> 
> ...glad I'm not the only one who sees it that way...we just _call_ him 
> Sludden in my family...
> 
> 
> Allan:
> 
> >I can think of few who are further from Gene Wolfe's view of the world 
> > >than Alasdair Gray, brilliant though he is;
> 
> I wonder...is it actually possible to ascribe a world-view to either author 
> when both have produced such diverse works?
> 
> If you mean politico-religious outlooks, well certainly they're different, 

> but not necessarily as vastly as some might think.
> 
> >All of these writers produce intelligent complex fictions but if there >is 
> >a difference between them and Wolfe, I would say that they all >write books 
> >which are character driven, whereas Wolfe's books possibly >use the 
> >characters to promote or act out his ideas.
> 
> Jonathan Carroll?  I wonder...I have the greatest admiration for Mr. 
> Carroll's work, but if we are to draw a dichotomy between character and idea 
> I'd have to say that I've always thought of him as a novelist of ideas 
> rather than character.
> 
> >This could be why I have lost some of my admiration for Wolfe's recent 
> > >work, and I would agree with Alga about his more recent short stories, 
> > >some of which seem lacking in content and obscure for the
> >sake of obscurity. I still have enormous admiration for the man, but 
> > >sometimes it makes more sense if you just say what you mean.
> 
> I can't judge the recent short stories, but ever since reading someone's 

> statement on this list that Mr. Wolfe is not at his best in the short story 
> format, I've been winding up to take mild exception, mostly on the strength 
> of 'Forlesen', which I personally think is one of the most memorable 'SF' 
> short stories I've read...it's actually one of the few that I _do_ remember 
> at all.
> 
> I don't think that Mr. Wolfe obfuscates for the mere love of mystery, or at 
> least right up to the Short Sun series, which is the last I've read.  And I 
> believe that some of the enjoyment of reading him comes from the mysteries 
> and ambiguities...which are a decided incentive to re-reading...and 
> speculation...and, as the discussions on this list show, the mysteries seem 
> to have a purpose, and sometimes even admit of explanation...
> 
> 
> Blattid:
> 
> >It's entirely possible, and I suspect even likely, that Isangoma, Robert, 
> >and Marie are actually citizens of the Commonwealth who wandered in and 
> >were caught in this way.
> 

> >Actually, I've suddenly entirely re-visioned the Botanic Gardens in my mind 
> >... In other words, Father Inire has built (for whose amusement?) a theme 
> >park, a sort of posthistorical Walt Disney World with living 
> >audioanimatrons.
> 
> ...precisely...caught and reprogrammed according to the best information 
> available at the time, which _was_ the movies and/or the books of the 20th 
> Century...of which perhaps a handful survived in the Library...they took the 
> people from one source, and the fauna from another...millions of years have 
> passed since then, even the continents have changed...how are they gonna 
> know what went where?
> 
> >(The horror! The horror!)
> 
> Well...the autarchy plays pretty rough as it is...and one presumes that the 
> exhibits have their meals supplied regularly...which doesn't always happen 
> in Nessus proper...
> 
> >Like every SF/F writer from the 1950s on, Moorcock uses (consciously or 
> >not) rhetorical techniques and moves invented or improved by Heinlein to 

> >establish the nature of his discursive pseudo-realities.
> 
> ?
> 
> _Every_ SF/F writer?
> 
> Ballard?
> 
> LeGuin?
> 
> Burroughs?
> 
> etc.?
> 
> >    My wife still won't believe that anyone could call nipples "those twin 
> >spiggots of desire" or claim that one woman's "nipples went spung").
> 
> >These are classic, aren't they ... Up there with "five minutes of 
> >squelching noise."
> 
> ..not to mention having one of his supposedly 'sexually liberated' 
> characters declare, in 'Stranger in a Strange Land', "[n]ine times out of 
> ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault." (p. 281, NEL pbk, 1976)
> 
> I was trying to read the book with all due sympathy after quarreling 
> severely with my mother-in-law, who takes the work as gospel, but it fell 
> from my hands at this point, never to rise again...
> 
> ...presumably Mr. Heinlein has never been raped himself...I daresay he would 
> feel quite differently about the matter if so...but at least I now 

> understand why Charles Manson adapted the book as his bible...he even called 
> his son Michael Valentine Manson...
> 
> (ducks to avoid return fire from water-brethren...)
> 
> 
> Chris:
> 
> >something that I find a little disturbing in Wolfe's novels- the >frequency 
> >of rape committed by his protagonists or major characters.
> 
> ...see above...perhaps it (sometimes) takes a female writer to present rape 
> as a disgusting and humiliating experience with no symbolic or redemptive 
> value...Le Guin does it rather well...
> 
> *
> 
> What a gloomy note to end on...how about this, instead: Happy Easter to 
> those who believe!
> 
> ->Zx<-
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to  
> http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp
> 
> 
> -- 

> Message-ID: <001801c30628$d732e040$2f3ec6d8@rclackey.stic.net>
> From: "Roy C. Lackey" 
> To: "urth" 
> Subject: Re: (urth) Moorcock
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:04:49 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> 
> Dan'l quoted and wrote:
> >>Mike would be deeply insulted to be compared in any way to Heinlein,
> >
> >That's a pity, because to refuse such comparison is essentially to
> >insist on situating himself outside the SF/F genre entirely; RAH is,
> >so to speak, the elephant in the room. Like every SF/F writer from
> >the 1950s on, Moorcock uses (consciously or not) rhetorical techniques
> >and moves invented or improved by Heinlein to establish the nature of
> >his discursive pseudo-realities.
> 
> Amen! I don't think I've ever been so entirely in agreement with Dan'l about
> anything so much as his eloquent defense of a man who shouldn't need
> defending.
> 

> Perhaps the most conspicuous instance of Heinlein in Wolfe is "The Last
> Thrilling Wonder Story". From my first reading of it to today, I have always
> thought that Wolfe was making some sort of dig at Heinlein -- putting him
> down in some way -- that I've never been comfortable with. Maybe it's just
> me.
> 
> -Roy
> 
> 
> -- 

> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:56:51 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Dave Rolsky 
> To: urth@urth.net
> Subject: Re: (urth) Recommended authors
> Message-ID: 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 jismulkstis@att.net wrote:
> 
> > I strongly recommend Iain M. Banks Culture novels:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > While stylistically unlike Gene Wolfe, Iain M. Banks writes
> > novels about the moral ambiguity that comes with wielding
> 
> Ok, this thread is ancient but the general topic is still being discussed
> so ...
> 
> Actually, I do think Iain Banks and Wolfe have some stylistic
> similarities, primarily in that both seem to enjoy setting complicated,
> elaborate sets of clues while playing with your head.  Banks seems to do
> this more through formal structures, as in Feersum Endjinn (probably my
> favorite Banks novel), where he rigidly alternates chapters in cycles of

> four, one for each narrating character, each of whom has a distinct voice.
> The trick in the book is figuring out the timeline of each character,
> because it's not purely sequential.
> 
> He also does some fun timeline tricks in Use of Weapons.
> 
> 
> -dave
> 
> /*=======================
> House Absolute Consulting
> www.houseabsolute.com
> =======================*/
> 
> -- 

> Message-ID: <002701c3065f$d98c0d80$0d866f83@emma.cam.ac.uk>
> From: "Ed Cooke" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: (urth) Other authors
> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:38:40 +0100
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> 
> Good to see Goethe and Iain M. Banks cropping up in this thread. To complete
> the triangle, I've always assumed Banks took the title of 'Against A Dark
> Background' from the following passage of Goethe:
> 
> "Spring had come in all its glory. An untimely storm that had been looming
> all day thundered down from the mountains, rain swept across the landscape,
> the sun returned and a rainbow shone forth from the greyness. Wilhelm rode
> towards it and was deeply moved. "Oh!" he said to himself. "Do life's most
> beautiful colours only make themselves clear to us against a dark
> background? Must raindrops fall for our delight? A clear day is no different

> from a cloudy one, if we look at it unmoved, and what can move us but the
> silent hope that our hearts' natural inclination will not go unrequited? We
> are moved by the account of a good deed, the contemplation of an aesthetic
> object; they make us feel as though we are not complete strangers here, and
> give us intimations of a homeland towards which our highest and innermost
> feelings impatiently strive."    --'Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre', Bk VII Ch I
> 
> TBotNS is the best Bildungsroman I've ever read, mainly because it ends
> satisfactorily. Wieland spent thirty years rewriting his 'Agathon',
> eventually resorting to a further argument between the eponymous hero and
> the Sophist Hippias in the afterlife, and Goethe churned out a sequel in his
> dotage that loaded the characters with so much symbolism that no-one could
> really care about them anymore; but Wolfe ties up enough loose ends for a
> sense of closure but not so many as to preclude another two novel cycles.
> Bravo!
> 
> 
> -- 


> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:42:47 -0500
> Subject: Re: (urth) Re Other Authors
> From: Adam Stephanides 
> To: 
> Message-ID: 
> Mime-version: 1.0
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> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> on 4/17/03 12:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at katbarx@hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> > "How the Whip Came
> > Back"
> 
> Yuck; this may be my least favorite Wolfe story, with its combination of
> misogyny and heavy-handed satire.  I do like the bit about "her Louis XIV
> secretary, Sal," though.
> 
> > One thing I look for in fiction, and which Wolfe provides
> > in abundance, is a sense that the problems it wrestles with are
> > problems relevant to the world that is the case, while the problems
> > in Moorcock's fiction seem to be relevant only to Moorcock's
> > imagined worlds -- a problem he shares with, for example, some of
> > Heinlein's lesser work.
> 

> I've never been able to get into Moorcock, apart from "Flux," but my impulse
> would be to disagree with this.  My impression is that Moorcock uses
> deliberately unreal characters to comment on real problems.
> 
> I've only read a little Ian Watson, and didn't like him, but there is a
> superficial similarity between him and Wolfe.  They're both "cerebral" and
> "literary" authors, though my memory of Watson is that his stuff really is
> empty of emotion.  Incidentally, I once read an article by Watson
> criticizing SotT because the protagonist was a torturer; something about
> making it seem that torturers weren't really so bad, iirc (but don't quote
> me).
> 
> --Adam 
> 
> 
> -- 

> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:51:46 -0500
> Subject: Re: (urth) Short Story collections
> From: Adam Stephanides 
> To: 
> Message-ID: 
> Mime-version: 1.0
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> Going back to Terry's original question, on 4/14/03 8:43 AM, Terry Lago at
> tlago@chass.utoronto.ca wrote:
> 
> > Can any of you enlighten me about the various short story collections of
> > Wolfe? How would you rank them and which ones have overlap in content? I was
> > looking for _Castle of Days_ recently and stumbled upon _Endangered
> > Species_, and I imagine I should have just picked it up, but didn't know
> > what would be inside (of course that's part of the pleasure of a Wolfe book
> > I guess, right?)
> > 
> > Can any of you enlighten me?
> > 
> > (I guess the reason I'm wary is because I generally don't like short

> > stories. I usually prefer novels and there are only a handful of authors
> > whose short fiction I enjoy...though I would be surprised if Wolfe didn't
> > also turn out to be one of these. Still...I always hum and ha before picking
> > up a short story collection.)
> 
> Confining myself to the five major-publisher collections, which are _The
> Island of Dr. Death..._, _Castle of Days_, _Endangered Species_, _Storeys
> from the Old Hotel_, and _Strange Travellers_ (_Gene Wolfe's Book of Days_
> is completely reprinted in _Castle_), I'd say the first of these has several
> essential stories, the second has one essential story ("Forlesen") and a
> great deal of filler, and the others don't have any essential stories,
> though there's certainly a lot of enjoyment to be gained from them.  I'd
> definitely start with _Island_, which every Wolfe fan should have read (it's
> the material collected here, along with 5HC, that originally brought Wolfe
> to prominence).  After that it doesn't much matter, although _Strange

> Travellers_ is probably the most solid of the remaining collections, in the
> sense of having the fewest throwaway stories.  And none of these five
> overlap at all, iirc.
> 
> Several small-press collections have appeared, though I don't know if any
> are still in print.  The only one of these I've seen is _Bibliomania_, which
> is fun, but lightweight, and should definitely come after the five
> collections above.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> -- 

> From: Richard Horton 
> To: urth@urth.net
> Subject: Re: (urth) Re Other Authors
> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:14:58 -0500
> Message-ID: <1f43avche006hvfnoaq2s81o04pvbgeqlv@4ax.com>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:06:59 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >No, that was me bought that.   Liege and Leaf
> >
> >FAIRPORT CONVENTION are a bunch of '70s Electric Folkies.  Some overlap =
> with
> >The Strawbs, but "music for hippies" doesn't cut it.
> 
> And their guitarist was Richard Thompson, very possibly the finest
> guitarist (in the rock/pop idiom) of our time.
> 
> Definitely not "music for hippies".  Fine stuff, actually.
> 
> --=20
> Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard.horton@sff.net
> Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
> Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online =
> (http://www.tangentonline.com)
> 
> -- 


> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:24:44 -0400
> Message-Id: <200304191824.OAA005.07@localhost.colby.edu>
> From: "Fernando Q. Gouvea" 
> To: urth@urth.net
> Subject: Re: (urth) Short Story collections
> Reply-To: urth@urth.net
> 
> 
> I've been following this discussion with some interest, because I do like
> many of Wolfe's short stories. They are a very diverse bunch of stories, of
> course, with the novellas at one end of the spectrum and stories that are
> little more than jeux d'esprit at the other. Still, here's my take on the
> various collections:
> 
> The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories includes
> several essential stories and several others that are fun but light. The
> best, I think are the title story, "The Death of Doctor Island", "The
> Eyeflash Miracles", "Tracking Song", and "Seven American Nights". In
> addition, I have a soft spot for "La Befana". Finally, there's "The Toy
> Theater", which I think is just brilliant, an elegantly cut gem that ends

> up making a significant point about whether it's worthwhile to sacrifice
> one's life for one's craft.
> 
> Castle of Days includes the short stories that originally appeared in Gene
> Wolfe's Book of Days. As several people have pointed out, "Forlesen" is an
> amazing story. I also like "Beautyland" (which has since lost some of its
> power because it was too correct), "How I Lost the Second World War and
> Helped Turn Back the German Invasion" (this one seems not to get much
> respect, but I still think it's great fun), and "The War Beneath the
> Tree". Castle of Days also includes "The Castle of the Otter", a collection
> of secondary pieces about the Book of the New Sun, of which the best, I
> think, is "These Are the Jokes" (which is brilliant).
> 
> Endangered Species includes several stories that stand out for me,
> including "The Cabin on the Coast", "In the House of Gingerbread", "When I
> Was Ming the Merciless", and "The Detective of Dreams". Several others are

> at least interesting: "The Last Thrilling Wonder Story", and the two "The
> Woman Who Loved" stories. Pound for pound, this is probably the weakest of
> the collections.
> 
> Storeys From the Old Hotel, though meant as a kind of collection of less
> significant stories, actually contains several that I think are among his
> best: "Westwind", "Parkroads", "A Solar Labyrinth", "Cherry Jubilee", and
> (I'm sure choosing this one will annoy people) "In Looking-Glass Castle".
> 
> In Strange Travelers, there are several strange stories that I haven't
> completely processed yet. Still, "No Planets Strike" seems very fine to me,
> "And When They Appear" is disturbing but well done, "Ziggurat" is again
> disturbing but packs a punch, and "Counting Cats on Zanzibar" is very
> good. "Bed and Breakfast" is fun but minor. Some of the others I'm not sure
> what to do with yet.
> 
> That's quite a good bunch of stories, I think, of many different types and
> styles. Perhaps not as good as the very best sf short story writers, but

> pretty close.
> 
> Fernando
> 
> -- 
> 
> Fernando Q. Gouvea                      
> Department of Mathematics          Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online
> Colby College                      Mathematical Association of America
> Waterville, ME 04901               http://www.maa.org
> fqgouvea@colby.edu                      
> ==========================================================
> 
> Genua had once controlled the river mouth and taxed its traffic in a way
> that couldn't be called piracy because it was done by the city government.
>   -- Local-body politics explained
>      Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad
> 
> 
> 
> -- 


--