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From: "Chris" 
Subject: Re: (urth) Women; Incomprehensible Three
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:58:32 +0000

Hmm. Here I always thought that the Trinity would be something a Buddhist or 
Hindu would have a much easier time understanding than your average western 
Christian. Not to say that the understanding reached would be better, but it 
would seem at least to come more naturally.

Not sure what you mean on the Dorpspraak - it goes on for a little while, 
but I've not seen him use something like that for hundreds of pages. Side 
note: your mileage may vary, but I found the dialog between Oreb and the 
catachrest to be far more annoying and difficult to follow.

Wolfe's women have been commented on fairly extensively here, so I won't 
drag the whole thing out again. But I think you may already have an answer 
in what you said toward the end there. I can't think of any character, male 
or female, in any Wolfe book I have read that is more "stomach-churningly 
idolized" than Silk (which is not to say that he doesn't have his flaws). 
And his other male protagonists? Flawed, sometimes deeply so - in some cases 
outright brutal. Does this indicate that Wolfe has issues with men?

I don't dislike most of Wolfe's female characters - in fact, many of them I 
like better than Wolfe's male protagonists - though it's true that some of 
them are just not very strong. I don't find that too bothersome, but what 
*does* bother me is the kind of male-female relationships he sets up. But 
that's another story, and one best left to archive-browsing.

-- Civet

Sikozu said:
>Incidentally, to those who comment that Buddhism is confusing and mystical, 
>I usually reply by asking them questions about the Trinity until such time 
>as I am able to throw my hands in the air and say, "You think BUDDHISM is 
>incomprehensible?!?" I figure they asked for it.
>On a third note, there was some discussion before about women in Wolfe. 
>Well, I must say that while I adore Wolfe, I find his Crypto-Catholicism 
>and anti-feminism irritating. I have never met the man and can only stand 
>in awe of his brilliant writing, but no one is perfect and sometimes he is 
>boring or annoying: "Dorpspraak like Yoda annoying for hundreds of pages 
>is" - or just angrymaking.
>On women, he is angrymaking to me, if I may half-Dorp. His narrators so 
>consistently paint a world in which women are either divine or divine 
>bitches, and always incomprehensible, is very very aggravating. Long Sun 
>and Short Sun beg for a half-decent female character who isn't crap. 
>General Mint doesn't count, she is the virgin Joan of Arc, beyond humanity 
>in person.
>That's my opinion, held after rereading the books a few times. The women 
>are stomach-churningly idolised or jammed in the mud, and the 'good men' 
>casually rape, murder and kill.
>Anyway, I'm sure many will disagree, but as a woman that's what I got out 
>of them. Not to say I don't adore them but Wolfe is clearly tied in knots 
>about women somewhere and it comes out plain and clear to me.
>Of course, my idea of a fun time is reading "Hothead Paisan", so take it 
>with a grain of salt. ;-)
>"I sit for world revolution"
>Alan Ginsberg, 19 July 1981

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