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From: m.driussi@genie.com
Subject: (whorl) Marbles, lost&found
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 05:05:00 GMT

[Posted from Whorl, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]

Reply:  Item #2273241 from WHORL@LISTS.BEST.COM@INET01#


I should get in the habit of including chapter numbers in citations.
(I do have a table of hardcover pagination by chapters, btw.  Available
shortly.  But I don't have the magic conversion table yet, to go from
hardcover to paperback.)  So let's see . . .

II, ch. 8, p. 208: Silk dreams `Maytera Mint was in bed, sick . . .
Maytera Mint got out of bed . . . but she was naked . . . her sleek
metal body gleaming' [Rose is the sick one, Marble is the metal one].

IV, ch. 14, p. 313: a "typo"? `Siyuf looked back to Maytera Marble.
"You wish to tell me of the Charter of your city . . . "' [Siyuf is
talking to Mint.  Marble is on the airship, far away {see a few pages

IV, "My Defense," p. 380: another "typo"?  `"So I ran some more."
Maytera Mint [sic] looked up at us, and it seemed worse to me than
any weeping that her eyes were not full of tears."'  [Marble is
talking about Q's death.  Mint is still in Viron, isn't she?]

If it isn't a dream, then it is one of the first cases of non-linear
events, since I believe it describes a very hot morning breakfast
scene yet is sandwiched among nightside activities.  Is there
anything from Mint later to corroborate?

(The one non-linear section that immediately comes to my mind is the
spectacular staggered sequence in CALDE involving the fighting with
the airship over the Alambrera: chapter 8, Marble sees a missile from
the ground heading for the airship; then we get the lead up to that
from the point of view of Auk, Chenille, et ali in the Alambrera as
the floater comes over and Hammerstone fires the missile; =then= we
have Silk in bed, dreaming, finally waking up and doing all the lead
up to getting into the floater; at last, in chapter 9, Silk is in the
flying floater as it is about to fire on the airship.  Retrograde

Re: GIFT FROM EARTH, I remember the story but not that detail about
the social set up.  I do remember the ship as prison, and the mercy
guns, and the organ harvesting.  Neat!  (Thanks Talon and Rana.)

Re: what gets Mamelta.  Big fish.  Or sea monster.  That's how it
seems to me.  But I watch for undines as well as a Scylla-like
monster!  If not the "goddess" herself, then a loveable mascot.


Easy now.  You've confused Moly and Maggie! (See lists, IV.)  The
handy mneumonic is to remember that "Moly" is the magic herb
(sweetheart of Hammerstone), Maggie is the metal.

Granted, it is clear that you think that there is not one iota of
Moly in Maggie aka Marble/Rose.  Fair enough, and a defensible
position.  Rose's chem prosthetics have only essence of Rose within
them.  Only one previous owner, a little old lady who only drove 'em
to church every day--cherry condition.

You ignore my paraphrasing of a Marble lie--I'm not sure why,
because you deem it not "the" important lie (that of claiming to be
Moly)?  The lie I went on about was a lie she was shrived (shriven?) for
many times, which makes it seem of some import; it is a case where we have
enough pieces to attempt to evaluate or judge the mendacity involved, to try
to see how Marble is perceiving things; etc.  Oh well.

Then again, I don't know if you intended it, but your message seems
to suggest that "image free" Sphigx of militaristic Trivigaunte is
actually a Tartaros run operation.  Which I could certainly
entertain. (Prior to this moment, I thought Tartaros was sleeping
ala Cthulhu, like all the other major gods.  Except for the dead one,
of course.  He's dead.)

Do you think that the rebellion on the Whorl anticipates (echoes) the
rebellion on Urth?  Do you think that the end results are more
different or more similar on post-exodus Whorl and post-Monarch Urth?
Do you think it is a trap to think such thoughts?  Hmmm.

Re: "repairs Mamelta made to the ship," uh . . . okay, so repair the
Shrine of Pas and you are actually repairing Tartaros, or waking him
up.  Why not?

But I really can't follow the "Tartaros can use other godly images"
thought, since it seems to me that if he could use (or see) other godly
images then he could cobble together something for his own visage.
My impression is that he perceives all as numbers, sort of like when
Marble is fritzing out, or when Echidna in Marble says stuff like
that immediately prior to "leaving" (if Echidna ever really left).

Re: pilots and technicians, if physical looks didn't matter then the
slavers would have taken Harena of URTH . . . oh, I forgot--the series
aren't connected like that.

Re: Kypris, "never in a manteion"?  But your list of theophanies
includes Kypris at Sun Street (twice) and Brick Street manteions,
doesn't it?  (Yes, it does.)

Re: "Mint is NOT melded into Marble/Rose."  Ah.  Well then, please
ignore the three points of text given above and I'll try not to dig
any more up.

Re: "many a lass has lied to catch a good looking soldier," that's an
interesting point, because you know?  There was a bio woman flirting
with that =very= same chem soldier.  Most odd.  What would Hyacinth be
up to in playing with Hammerstone?  Unthinkable.

In closing, I think that a big key to the whole shebang re:
Typhon/Pas is: "if a devil were to _personate_ a goddess, it would
_become_ that goddess, in a way" (III, ch. 2, 60).  Ties in quite well
with many points in that =excellent= interview of Wolfe by James B.
Jordan (available on Paul Duggan's page).


Questions or problems to whorl-owner@lists.best.com

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