URTH |
From: David Duffy <davidD@qimr.edu.au> Subject: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n073 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:17:02 +1000 (EST) VDOn Tue, 2 Nov 1999 urth-errors@lists.best.com wrote: > > -------------- BEGIN urth.v028.n073 -------------- > > 001 - =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=2 - Inire's "Mirrors" > 002 - "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey - Re: Inire's "Mirrors" > 003 - Patri10629@aol.com - Re: the superb level of discourse here > 004 - "Alice Turner" <akt@attgl - Fairy Tale alchemy > 005 - Alex David Groce <Alex_Gr - Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of discourse here > 006 - "Greene, Carlton" <CGreen - Technology as Magic and Metaphor (long) > 007 - Dan Parmenter <dan@lec.co - Botanical Garden Curator > 008 - "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@ho - Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of discourse here > 009 - "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@ho - Re: (urth) Fairy Tale alchemy > 010 - =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=2 - Science and Miracles > > URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.1 --------------- > > From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> > Subject: Inire's "Mirrors" > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:02:42 -0800 (PST) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I'm glad to see that my "Fairy Tale Logic" posting > ended our dry patch; I'm also gratified that mantis > agrees with me in part, a rare event. But to take up > the cudgel again: I still contend that Inire's > description of the working of his mirrors is > intentional gibberish on Wolfe's part, to the extent > that he wishes it to be read as gibberish, in contrast > with all the intended-to-be-plausible explanations of > FTL technology in SF. An ideas-driven writer like Poul > Anderson or Isaac Asimov desires his FTL conception to > be believed, to be given the benefit of a very large > doubt; but for a style-driven writer like Jack Vance > or Wolfe, an FTL-exposition is a CONCEIT, a rhetorical > contrivance, serving a metaphorical or humorous > purpose. Inire's mirrors should be interrogated on > that basis. > > Incidentally, in defense of mantis' view of Typhon as > alchemical symbol: the point of alchemy for many was > the conversion of their base flesh into perfect matter > blessed with immortality. Typhon's aim in usurping > Piaton's body is also extended life. > > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.2 --------------- > > From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey@stic.net> > Subject: Re: Inire's "Mirrors" > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:10:11 -0600 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Nicholas Gevers wrote: > > >>I'm glad to see that my "Fairy Tale Logic" posting > ended our dry patch; I'm also gratified that mantis > agrees with me in part, a rare event. But to take up > the cudgel again: I still contend that Inire's > description of the working of his mirrors is > intentional gibberish on Wolfe's part, to the extent > that he wishes it to be read as gibberish, in contrast > with all the intended-to-be-plausible explanations of > FTL technology in SF. An ideas-driven writer like Poul > Anderson or Isaac Asimov desires his FTL conception to > be believed, to be given the benefit of a very large > doubt; but for a style-driven writer like Jack Vance > or Wolfe, an FTL-exposition is a CONCEIT, a rhetorical > contrivance, serving a metaphorical or humorous > purpose. Inire's mirrors should be interrogated on that basis. << > > To say nothing of the "white fountain". I would like to see the > scientific explanation for the mating of a man and a larval "angel" > producing an extra-universal remedy for a black hole in a dying sun. > > Roy > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.3 --------------- > > From: Patri10629@aol.com > Subject: Re: the superb level of discourse here > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 04:32:47 EST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > In a message dated 11/2/99 12:43:53 AM, Mitchell Bailey writes: > > << As you probably can tell, I'm not a literature scholar. I'll have to > paraphrase Sev's line on this subject: if I sometimes manage to seem a > peer of the esteemed contributors to this list, or at least one whose > company does not shame them (perplexes? annoys?) it is to a significant > extent due to that erudition to which I've been exposed here. >> > > No, I couldn't tell, and, yes, I know *exactly* what you mean. If ever there > was a forum which enhanced and increased my pleasure with Wolfe's work, why > humbling me, this is it. What a privilege it is to eavesdrop. Hats off to > you, mates. > > Love Mr Ansley's Oz reference. > > A sidenote: Responding to my constant complaint that parades are not > organized in response to, and full-page New York Times reviews are not > devoted to each new Wolfe book, (and a national holiday not declared > specifically for a masterwork like ON BLUE'S WATERS), a friend replied: "With > those godawful covers they slap on his books they're scaring off anybody with > half a brain who doesn't already know he's great." Comments? > > Actually the cover of OBW is sort of Wolfe in a nutshell--the siren's one > grotesque feature is hidden from view, the animal's leg's too. What? What's a > few limbs between friends? > > I must say again: We are not all lit crit/ sci fi (uh-oh I said the naughty > word)/intellectual giants (I mean besides Mantis and Alga), nerds and > nerdettes obsessed with minutia (I'll forgive the geographers for the > moment). "Minutia." Hey! Maybe That could be my name! (sorry) Is Wolfe so > wrenchingly good? So demanding? Am I naive and alone in thinking that his > art is ultimately accessible? > > best, > > Patrick O'Leary > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.4 --------------- > > From: "Alice Turner" <akt@attglobal.net> > Subject: Fairy Tale alchemy > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:04:40 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Mantis remarked, in discussion of fantasy v. SF: > > > "Magical," yes, but most specifically it is "alchemical." > > > > If you pick up a modern book on alchemy, chances are it will have some of > > those great old woodcuts regarding the stages of The Great Work: which is > > "turning lead into gold" for the laity. Red Lion, Green Dragon, Black > > Raven, Virgin Milk--all sorts of wild stuff. Anyway, in the midst of all > > this Chemical Wedding, there appears a potent symbol: a two-headed being, > > usually a big muscular creature with a king's head and a queen's head > (both > > crowned, iirc). Mind you, this is an =allegorical= representation of some > > funky chemical process --it isn't meant to be some sort of Frankenstein's > > monster that literally appears. > > > > But this double-header is =not= the end-product: it is not the > > philosopher's stone. It is only a stage along the way. So, true to form, > > it must be "killed" so that the next mode can emerge--this woodcut shows > > the critter being put to bed in a tomb. > > > > THUS, in addition to the Satan's Temptation of Christ elements in the > > scenes with Typhon and Severian, I have reason to believe that there is an > > even stronger thread of alchemical thought and tradition represented: one > > that links up with other keystones of the text to form an adamantine > chain. > > > > I strongly suspect that Damien Broderick knows exactly what I'm talking > > about. (I also know that alga is rolling her eyes at all this!) > > Well, no. Actually I agree---how not. The Gothic elements refer directly > back to alchemy, most specifically in Baldanders's castle by the lake with > his "experiments" aided by "elementals" from the air and his great > familiar/catamite/clone (and the whole parody, almost Pythoneque, in which > Baldanders is both Frankenstein and creature, with Dr. Talos as a "beard"). > Also much later when we find the homunculus/mandragora at the Citadel. But, > as I have said before, these are almost certainly filtered from the direct > Gothic tradition (mostly English) by Wolfe's reading of Goethe's Faust, Part > II (the one people don't read so much), which is a weirdly hallucinogenic > "take" on the Gothic/alchemical novel with its castles and laboratories and > "philosopher's stones" and transmutations. > > Typhon too appears in this general air of the Gothic. > > And mantis, I don't roll my eyes at your allusions, they start to roll when > you seize them (the allusions, not the eyes) with your mandibles and > brutally worry them into virtuality. > > -alga > > > > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.5 --------------- > > From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce@gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu> > Subject: Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of discourse here > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:21:00 -0500 > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 02 Nov 1999 04:32:47 EST." > <199911020934.BAA25639@lists1.best.com> > > Patrick-- > > Well, part of my point in the whole modernism debate was that, because he > avoids their techniques, Wolfe is at the least pretty darn accessible for > a modernist. While I like that kind of thing, I understand the people who > throw ULYSSES and THE SOUND AND THE FURY down and never pick them back up. > > The main thing with Wolfe is, you DO have to pay attention. Which some readers > aren't very keen on. FREE LIVE FREE and those darned morning glories catches > a lot of people sleeping (although if you don't figure out what's going on > before "all is revealed" anyway you are not paying attention on a much bigger > level). > > I'm really not a fan of the OBW cover. On the other hand, the Long Sun covers > were OK, if nothing spectacularly good. But they all look like *gasp* Science > Fiction Book Covers, which is honest advertising but not too good for getting > random non-SF people who would enjoy Wolfe to read him. > > > "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 > -- > Alex David Groce (agroce+@cs.cmu.edu) > Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department > 8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066 > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.6 --------------- > > From: "Greene, Carlton" <CGreene2@hunton.com> > Subject: Technology as Magic and Metaphor (long) > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:38:03 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Nicholas Gevers wrote: > > >>I'm glad to see that my "Fairy Tale Logic" posting ended our dry patch; > I'm also gratified that mantis agrees with me in part, a rare event. But to > take up the cudgel again: I still contend that Inire's description of the > working of his mirrors is intentional gibberish on Wolfe's part, to the > extent that he wishes it to be read as gibberish, in contrast with all the > intended-to-be-plausible explanations of FTL technology in SF. An > ideas-driven writer like Poul Anderson or Isaac Asimov desires his FTL > conception to be believed, to be given the benefit of a very large doubt; > but for a style-driven writer like Jack Vance or Wolfe, an FTL-exposition is > a CONCEIT, a rhetorical contrivance, serving a metaphorical or humorous > purpose. Inire's mirrors should be interrogated on that basis. << > > Roy wrote: > > <<To say nothing of the "white fountain". I would like to see the scientific > explanation for the mating of a man and a larval "angel" producing an > extra-universal remedy for a black hole in a dying sun. Roy >> > > Two points. First, I see no reason to give the boot to "scientism." > Second, and more importantly, "scientism" and technology-as-metaphor are not > mutually exclusive, but rather mutually enhancing. > > Wolfe's explanations of technology are often mysterious and incomplete, but > Wolfe's resort to complete, detailed explanations for certain technologies > implies that even the really strange examples have some explanation to them > that has not been made entirely clear to the reader. I agree that the > explanation of Inire's mirrors reads like sleight of hand, but wasn't it > supposed to be a simplistic explanation of a very complicated technology > given to a child? (Maybe I've forgottent the context in which the speech was > delivered). As to Typhon and his grafted head, its important to remember > that the pieces of humanity's scientific knowledge that have survived the > aeons are weird and patchy throughout the books -- maybe a head graft was > the most rational means at Typhon's disposal to achieve his goals. We know > very little about the operation itself or the medical knowledge available in > Typhon's time. It boots us little to say that the operation makes no sense > because of what we know about medical science in the 20th century -- many > of the technologies described in the TBOTNS assume capabilities (and > limitations) which we can neither verify or reject based on current science. > Instead, we take from Wolfe's attempt to provide or hint at some scientific > explanation for these phenomenon the *flavor* that these are miracles of > technology rather than magic. In sum, the fact that many of the > explanations of particular technologies are shadowy, unclear, or apparently > paradoxical given current scientific understanding does not mean that we as > readers are not intended to, and should not, understand that some rational > explanation lies lurking in the background. I think we are. > > More importantly, maintaining the idea that some scientific explanation for > these phenomenon exists strengthens, rather than weakens, the power of these > technologies as metaphors. If it were clear that items like Typhon's two > heads and apheta's quasar-producing, larval lust were meant simply as pure, > fluffy fanstasy, existing only as a metaphorical allusion, their power as > symbols would be less. Instead, the idea that they are simultaneously > scientifically explainable events and spiritual metaphors with real power > creates a sense of destiny and religious meaning in our physical universe. > In TBOTNS every action, object, and interaction reveals some significant > truth about the Increate. Sev's discovery of a thorn on a (Pacific!) beach, > which is at once biological matter, a relic of real physical power, and a > revelation of the divine nature of physical existence, is an example of this > principle. > > One last point: Given the above, it is interesting to note that the > technology of the heirogrammates, a technology infused with love and divine > grace, is more obviously metaphorical and more difficult to explain > scientifically as physical technology, as Roy points out. My take on this: > the closer we get to the divine, the more we understand that the physical > universe does in fact exist, but is intended as a functioning, scientific > metaphor for certain underlying principles, a particularly graceful way of > revealing spiritual truths. The heirogrammates pull the curtain aside on > this methodology in a way that we are not exposed to normally, explicitly > fusing technology and metaphor. In contrast, the sturdiest scientific > explanations in the books are given for items in the hands of the "godless" > exploiters of scientific knowledge -- Baldanders and Typhon. I always > understood this to mean that this was the sin makind was being punished for > -- the exploitation and achievement of god-like scientific power without the > concommittant moral and spiritual development -- without the principle of > love or grace or what have you. Mankind is being punished for selling off > its emotions in furtherance of blind ambition. > > I apologize if I am rambling here, but if I am, it is because I have been > inspired by the exceptional quality of the discussion on this list, and I am > certainly grateful for the opportunity to contribute. > > C/ > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.7 --------------- > > From: Dan Parmenter <dan@lec.com> > Subject: Botanical Garden Curator > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:52:22 -0800 > > Isn't Father Inire, the old BEM himself at least one of the curators > of the Botanical Garden? Damn, I don't have the text here. > > D > > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.8 --------------- > > From: "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: (urth) Re: the superb level of discourse here > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:09:51 PST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > Hello, Patrick! > > I also am enjoying this forum. > > About the covers...I couldn't agree more. When I read The Book of the New > Sun in paperback, I kept thinking, "What horrible cover art!" Especially on > Books II and III. Oh, I suppose the art isn't that bad...it's just > incredibly cliche. It has "sword and sorcery/Conan/pulp fiction" written all > over it, to use a cliche. No self-respecting lit professor would have books > with those covers on his/her bookshelf! > > The Tor/Orb editions (the two-volume edition, I mean) of The Book of the New > Sun is a little better--the books are well put together, the covers look > respectable, and they chose the two best samples of the cover art, at least. > My advice--give THOSE editions to your friends. > > Patrick--I don't think you are either naive or alone in thinking Wolfe's > work ultimately accessible. I can only speak for the Urth cycle and for a > few of his short stories, myself (still have to read 5HC and Dr.Death as > soon as I get the chance--the time, that is), but I find his work very > accessible. Severian's narrative voice--like, say, Ishmael's voice in Moby > Dick--draws the reader right in. > > (On the other hand, not every one finds Moby Dick accessible.) > > I'm not certain why some people "don't get" Wolfe's work. Is it the science > fiction element? > > Anyway, that's all I had to say. > > --Daniel > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.9 --------------- > > From: "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: (urth) Fairy Tale alchemy > Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:14:14 PST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > alga and mantis, > > I concede the point. You're right--I hadn't looked that carefully at the > sequence at Baldanders' castle. The connection to Faust is definitely > there--with the Homunculus, after all. > > I suppose I hadn't really connected alchemy with the Gothic tradition > before--maybe "Frankenstein" is the meeting point, then. > > So...if Typhon is--in one sense--an alchemical allusion, what is the > significance of the allusion? Is Typhon representative of a desire to > perfect the human form (by defeating death)? > > --Daniel > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > --------------- MESSAGE urth.v028.n073.10 --------------- > > From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nicholas=20Gevers?= <vermoulian@yahoo.com> > Subject: Science and Miracles > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:34:11 -0800 (PST) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I agree with other parties to our debate that the > ever-present possibility of scientific explanations > for events enriches NEW SUN, lending it rigour, > speculative depth, and metaphorical power. But as LONG > SUN makes clear, it is sometimes the possibility of a > miraculous explanation that is the most effective > literary device in Wolfe's work. I think that Wolfe at > times intentionally misleads his readers into byways > of scientific explication, in effect challenging them > to see the wood for the trees, the Word for the World; > when they fail to find secular explanations, or > contrive ones that are trivial and unsatisfactory, > they must perforce acknowledge the supremacy of the > miraculous. > > Another point: a miraculous explanation for a textual > incident doesn't entail capitulation to the > intellectually slack fluffiness of genre Fantasy > plotting. Wolfe intends us to understand supernatural > events as ultimately purposeful Divine interventions > or concessions, not as the random conjurings of elves > and wizards. > > > ===== > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > --------------- END urth.v028.n073 --------------- > > > *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ > > > > | David Duffy. ,-_|\ | email: davidD@qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / * | Epidemiology Unit, The Queensland Institute of Medical Research_,-._/ | 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia v *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/