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From: "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 23:18:01 PST

Also consider that Severian's "baptism" occurs during the ceremony in which 
he enters the guild. Master Palaemon sprinkles water upon his brow, if I 
remember aright. Later, in "The Claw of the Conciliator," Severian also 
partakes of a depraved parody of communion--so the sacraments appear in 

I agree with Ouroboros. The drowning scene seems more like a resurrection 
than a baptism.


>From: Ouroboros <ottofaij@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: urth@lists.best.com
>To: urth@lists.best.com
>Subject: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection
>Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:23:19 -0800 (PST)
><<<<Nessus? I can be mistaken, but I think you mean
>river Gyoll (is this the correct spelling?). This
>could be a Christian paralel, anyway: not with the
>resurrection of Christ -- wich, anyway, marks the end
>of Jesus's "career" on Earth --, but the Baptism by
>Oops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos.
>However, the Baptism of John is a not a good match
>IMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The
>nenuphar represents death because "under flower and
>leaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark
>waters" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the
>life-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian
>makes a straight-forward comparison between the
>necropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's
>nenuphars. The Gyoll=grave.
>Now, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of
>death, but the symbol is in *crossing* the river, not
>sinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross
>the Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the
>baptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent
>Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not
>the kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol
>of burial and resurection is top heavy.
>Finally, in orthodox theology it is at his
>resurrection when Jesus' *real* career began. When
>Christian's are baptized at their conversion or as
>infants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection.
>Of course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year
>period between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm
>chasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a
>I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being
>used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ
>seems to fit better than his baptism by John.
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