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From: "Daniel Fusch" <dfusch@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 23:18:01 PST Also consider that Severian's "baptism" occurs during the ceremony in which he enters the guild. Master Palaemon sprinkles water upon his brow, if I remember aright. Later, in "The Claw of the Conciliator," Severian also partakes of a depraved parody of communion--so the sacraments appear in ritual. I agree with Ouroboros. The drowning scene seems more like a resurrection than a baptism. --Daniel >From: Ouroboros <ottofaij@yahoo.com> >Reply-To: urth@lists.best.com >To: urth@lists.best.com >Subject: (urth) Re: Baptism vs. Resurrection >Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 21:23:19 -0800 (PST) > ><<<<Nessus? I can be mistaken, but I think you mean >the >river Gyoll (is this the correct spelling?). This >could be a Christian paralel, anyway: not with the >resurrection of Christ -- wich, anyway, marks the end >of Jesus's "career" on Earth --, but the Baptism by >John.>>> > >Oops! Thanks for the correction, Carlos. > >However, the Baptism of John is a not a good match >IMO. The bottom of the Nessus represents death. The >nenuphar represents death because "under flower and >leaves are black roots...reaching down in to the dark >waters" at the bottom of the Gyoll (where the >life-giving sun's rays do not reach). Also, Severian >makes a straight-forward comparison between the >necropolis with it's roses and the Gyoll with it's >nenuphars. The Gyoll=grave. > >Now, I know the Jordan river has also been a symbol of >death, but the symbol is in *crossing* the river, not >sinking to the bottom of it. Later Severian will cross >the Gyoll but that's the death of Balder not the >baptism of Jesus. And Christian baptism does represent >Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, but that's not >the kind of baptism John did and a symbol of a symbol >of burial and resurection is top heavy. > >Finally, in orthodox theology it is at his >resurrection when Jesus' *real* career began. When >Christian's are baptized at their conversion or as >infants it is representative of Jesus' resurrection. >Of course, for Catholic children there is a 13 year >period between baptism and confirmation, but now I'm >chasing rabbits because that's not how Wolfe became a >Christian. > >I suppose it's possible both things symbols are being >used simultaneously, but the resurrection of Christ >seems to fit better than his baptism by John. > >--Ouroboros >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > >works >*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/ >ranjit@best.com >whorl@lists.best.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/