Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:03:39 -0500
From: James Jordan 
Subject: Re: (urth) Beastly

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At 05:20 AM 4/18/2002, you wrote:
>Nutria wrote (of 5HC):
> >Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the church
>(Bride of Christ) in the
> >Book of Revelation (The Great Harlot). Thus, 666. Also, the place is
>guarded by Cerberus
> >who guards the gates of hell.
> >(Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he appears on earth,
>when "they want us.")
>
>I can't think of anything in this very secular SF story about family and
>self that would benefit from having Number Five turn out to be the
>anti-Christ.

         You may be right, but all of Wolfe's stuff "looks" "very secular." 
The religious/theological stuff is almost always sub rosa. The "benefit" 
would only be another overlay of meaning on the story, one that darkens it 
even more than it already is.

>The number 666 is the only explicit link to Revelation, and no one calls it
>the Number of the Anti-Christ. We call it the Number of the Beast.

         True, but in common Christian theology the Beast is the 
Antichrist. (This is not my view, but it is the common view.)

>  The Beast, like Cerberus, is many-headed, and that, I think, is the only
>connection we are supposed to make: that Number Five and his family are a
>single, many-headed monster.

         Good point, but commonly this is also antichrist. But if you want 
to say "not Antichrist but Beast," the thematic element remains, right?

>The evidence that we're supposed to read anything more into this is pretty
>tenuous. Cerberus guards the entrance to the underworld of Greek mythology,
>not the Christian hell. Given that classical Greek culture is explicitly
>name-checked in at least two other places in the story, this just doesn't
>feel like a Christian signifier.

         It does if you're read Dante, where the imagery is conflated. 
Cerberus appears in Inferno Canto 6. Wolfe is always conflating the two. 
Severian is both Christ-like and Apollo-like, and this in fact comes from 
the very earliest Christian imagery in the catacombs.

>And does a whorehouse automatically have to be the bride of the anti-Christ?
>Can't it just be a whorehouse? There are more than a few prostitues and
>houses of ill repute in Wolfe's fiction, bless him. If the Maison du Chien
>had formerly been a church, like the brothel in the Long Sun book, fair
>enough.

         Of course a whorehouse can be just that. But given its address, 
and what I see as other thematic signifiers, the one at 666 RdS is more 
than that. And you point out the parallel in the Long Sun. Wolfe uses this 
a lot. Consider that the Italian restaurant in *There Are Doors* represents 
the Catholic Church. It is very unLupine, IMO, for a whorehouse to be 
nothing but a whorehouse. And you point out the Beast as 666. Well, in Rev. 
17 the Beast rides the back of the Harlot. They are clearly associated in 
Christian thought.
         Wolfe is just using this "zone of imagery" to provide another dark 
depth to the narrative.
         But we may have to agree to disagree about this.

Nutria


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At 05:20 AM 4/18/2002, you wrote:

Nutria wrote (of 5HC):

>Jerry, also notice that it is a whorehouse, the opposite of the
church

(Bride of Christ) in the

>Book of Revelation (The Great Harlot). Thus, 666. Also, the place
is

guarded by Cerberus

>who guards the gates of hell.

>(Anyway, the abode of the antichrist is hell until he appears on
earth,

when "they want us.")


I can't think of anything in this very secular SF story about family
and

self that would benefit from having Number Five turn out to be the

anti-Christ.


        You may be
right, but all of Wolfe's stuff "looks" "very
secular." The religious/theological stuff is almost always sub rosa.
The "benefit" would only be another overlay of meaning on the
story, one that darkens it even more than it already is.


The number 666 is the
only explicit link to Revelation, and no one calls it

the Number of the Anti-Christ. We call it the Number of the
Beast.


        True, but
in common Christian theology the Beast is the Antichrist. (This is not my
view, but it is the common view.)


 The Beast, like
Cerberus, is many-headed, and that, I think, is the only

connection we are supposed to make: that Number Five and his family are
a

single, many-headed monster.


        Good
point, but commonly this is also antichrist. But if you want to say
"not Antichrist but Beast," the thematic element remains,
right? 


The evidence that
we're supposed to read anything more into this is pretty

tenuous. Cerberus guards the entrance to the underworld of Greek
mythology,

not the Christian hell. Given that classical Greek culture is
explicitly

name-checked in at least two other places in the story, this just
doesn't

feel like a Christian signifier.


        It does if
you're read Dante, where the imagery is conflated. Cerberus appears in
Inferno Canto 6. Wolfe is always conflating the two. Severian is both
Christ-like and Apollo-like, and this in fact comes from the very
earliest Christian imagery in the catacombs.


And does a whorehouse
automatically have to be the bride of the anti-Christ?

Can't it just be a whorehouse? There are more than a few prostitues
and

houses of ill repute in Wolfe's fiction, bless him. If the Maison du
Chien

had formerly been a church, like the brothel in the Long Sun book,
fair

enough.


        Of course
a whorehouse can be just that. But given its address, and what I see as
other thematic signifiers, the one at 666 RdS is more than that. And you
point out the parallel in the Long Sun. Wolfe uses this a lot. Consider
that the Italian restaurant in *There Are Doors* represents the Catholic
Church. It is very unLupine, IMO, for a whorehouse to be nothing but a
whorehouse. And you point out the Beast as 666. Well, in Rev. 17 the
Beast rides the back of the Harlot. They are clearly associated in
Christian thought.

        Wolfe is
just using this "zone of imagery" to provide another dark depth
to the narrative.

        But we may
have to agree to disagree about this.


Nutria



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