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From: "Andrew Bollen" 
Subject: Re: (urth) Arete questions
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:20:38 +1000

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Crush helps out:
    But to the point, there is one small issue that Andrew brings up =
that I think I understand. Latro kept his bargan with Artemis -- he =
raced. Hegisistratus' job was to **remind** Latro that he was to win. He =
failed to do that, so Latro won the favor of both Artemis and Hera, but =
Hegisistratus was "a dead man".

    I say:=20

    (What's that bar doing there? Anyway ...)  I'm not sure about this. =
Artemis' words were: "You bring victory, Latro, so you must drive for my =
prince. If you ***succeed*** you'll be rewarded." That sounds to me like =
Latro was supposed to achieve some specific outcome, not just show up & =
race.=20

    Also, and a hint that maybe "success" here wasn't necessarily =
winning the race: Ghost of Sisyphus to Latro in Ch 39: "{Elata is] on =
your side [because you] promised the Huntress that you'd  ***fix*** the =
race."=20

    Tisamenus in Delphi has a message from Artemis in a dream, shortly =
before the race: "The queen must win, and thus the queen must lose." Now =
if this was the only expression of Artemis' will we had, I wouldn't have =
a problem. I could read it this way: "My priestess queen Gorgo must win =
the important battle - ie, Pausanias must not wrest the kingship away =
from her son - so her horses must lose, else P. will get too powerful."=20

    But I think you are right that Hegesistrtus nowhere explicitly =
reminds Latro - he does prophesy Latro's "greatest victory", but that's =
not the same thing. So perhaps you're on to something - specifically, =
maybe Artemis has changed her mind since meeting them on the border of =
Thrace. Hegesistratus still has to be punished for screwing up his task, =
but maybe the desired outcome has changed slightly. The subtly different =
words she gives Tisamenus ("the queen" and "the queen", rather than "my =
queen" and "this queen") perhaps reflect this.

    Ch 38 seems to be important. This is the scene where the servants of =
Gaia - Aglaus, the centaurs etc - meet with the servant of Artemis, =
Elata, "sent into this quarrel to represent her interests." Sisyphus =
turns up, too, he says as a friend of Latro's, but perhaps also =
representing Kore's interests.=20

    Latro doesn't describe the workings of the conference (of course - =
aaaarrrrgh), but the purpose is to find a way to get him out of his =
depression. The story I make up about all this is that Latro is supposed =
to be a pawn in the game between Gaia and Artemis. While he is paralyzed =
with depression, the game can't go on. If the race goes ahead and he =
performs in a mediocre kind of way, nobody's interests are served.=20

    So the conference is to find a way to get him better, and also to =
find an agreeable compromise between (a) commitments made to him to help =
him find his friends, by both goddesses and (b) the goddess' conflicting =
plans for Pausanias. I have an image of the terrestial servants dealing =
with ways to pull Latro out of his hole, while the goddesses hammer out =
a deal in heaven over the larger issues.=20

    On this model, Gaia accepts (as she knew she might have to) that =
Pausanias isn't going to be king - but the helots eventually will wreak =
havoc on Sparta from the "bottom up" - which is what happened =
historically, I think. As she prophesies to the helots in Ch 31 of Mist: =
"Still he [Pausanias] and I may fail [to gain the kingship]. If so, I =
shall destroy Rope [..] then you must rise against the Rope Makers ..."

    In return, Artemis agrees to a modified plan in which Pausanias is =
still set on the road to destruction, but in a way which gets Latro oin =
the road home. Or something. It looks a bit lame, I suppose, but I'm =
trying, dammit :)


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Crush helps out:
But to the point, there is one = small issue=20 that Andrew brings up that I think I understand. Latro kept his bargan with Artemis -- he = raced.=20 Hegisistratus' job was to **remind** Latro that he was to win. He = failed to=20 do that, so Latro won the favor of both Artemis and Hera, but = Hegisistratus=20 was "a dead man".
 
I say:
 
(What's that bar doing there? = Anyway ...) =20 I'm not sure about this. Artemis' words were: "You bring victory, = Latro, so=20 you must drive for my prince. If you ***succeed*** you'll be = rewarded." That=20 sounds to me like Latro was supposed to achieve some specific = outcome,=20 not just show up & race.
 
Also, and a hint = that maybe "success"=20 here wasn't necessarily winning the race: Ghost of Sisyphus to Latro in Ch 39: "{Elata is] on your = side=20 [because you] promised the Huntress that you'd  ***fix*** = the=20 race."
 
Tisamenus in Delphi has a message = from Artemis=20 in a dream, shortly before the race: "The queen must win, and thus = the queen=20 must lose." Now if this was the only expression of Artemis' will we = had, I=20 wouldn't have a problem. I could read it this way: "My priestess = queen Gorgo=20 must win the important battle - ie, Pausanias must not wrest the = kingship=20 away from her son - so her horses must lose, else P. will get too = powerful."=20
 
But I think you are right that = Hegesistrtus=20 nowhere explicitly reminds Latro - he does prophesy Latro's = "greatest=20 victory", but that's not the same thing. So perhaps you're on to = something -=20 specifically, maybe Artemis has changed her mind since meeting them = on the=20 border of Thrace. Hegesistratus still has to be punished for = screwing up his=20 task, but maybe the desired outcome has changed slightly. The subtly = different words she gives Tisamenus ("the queen" and "the queen", = rather=20 than "my queen" and "this queen") perhaps reflect=20 this.
 
Ch 38 seems to be important. This = is the scene=20 where the servants of Gaia - Aglaus, the centaurs etc - meet with = the=20 servant of Artemis, Elata, "sent into this quarrel to represent her=20 interests." Sisyphus turns up, too, he says as a friend of Latro's, = but=20 perhaps also representing Kore's interests.
 
Latro doesn't describe the workings = of the=20 conference (of course - aaaarrrrgh), but the purpose is to find a = way to get=20 him out of his depression. The story I make up about all this is = that Latro=20 is supposed to be a pawn in the game between Gaia and Artemis. While = he is=20 paralyzed with depression, the game can't go on. If the race goes = ahead and=20 he performs in a mediocre kind of way, nobody's interests are = served.=20
 
So the conference is to find a way = to get him=20 better, and also to find an agreeable compromise between (a) = commitments=20 made to him to help him find his friends, by both goddesses and (b) = the=20 goddess' conflicting plans for Pausanias. I have an image of the = terrestial=20 servants dealing with ways to pull Latro out of his hole, while the=20 goddesses hammer out a deal in heaven over the larger issues. =
 
On this model, Gaia accepts (as she = knew she=20 might have to) that Pausanias isn't going to be king - but the = helots=20 eventually will wreak havoc on Sparta from the "bottom up" - which = is what=20 happened historically, I think. As she prophesies to the = helots in Ch=20 31 of Mist: "Still he [Pausanias] and I may fail [to gain the = kingship]. If=20 so, I shall destroy Rope [..] then you must rise against the Rope = Makers=20 ..."
 
In return, Artemis agrees to a = modified plan in=20 which Pausanias is still set on the road to destruction, but in a = way which=20 gets Latro oin the road home. Or something. It looks a bit lame, I = suppose,=20 but I'm trying, dammit :)
 
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